084 – Kareem Manuel: From Familiar to Optimal

Sarah Tacy [00:00:06]:
Hello. Welcome. I’m Sarah Tacy, and this is Threshold Moments, a podcast where guests and I share stories about the process of updating into truer versions of ourselves. The path is unknown, and the pull feels real. Together, we share our grief, laughter, love, and life saving tools. Join us. Hello, welcome to Threshold Moments. Today, we have with us Kareem Manuel.

Sarah Tacy [00:00:44]:
This conversation really inspired me. It reminds me a bit of Andrea Isabel Lucas. When somebody has a moment in time where they realize that they can be the authors of their life, as also Doctor. Dawn St. John said. In Andrea’s view, it would say, Oh, nobody’s coming to save me. I’m going to own it all. And as Kareem says with his brand, with We Society, we are the ones we’ve been waiting for.

Sarah Tacy [00:01:23]:
And in this moment of change to change everything from the food he eats, the movements he makes, the way he parents, the people he surrounds himself with, the oh, I wish I had asked him more actually on how his money story has changed and the role it plays in his life. It’s a teaser that doesn’t have an answer on this one. I actually left and I was like, oh, I have more questions. And the work that he’s doing with men’s group and music, so inspiring. And lastly, I’ll say, listen in for the story about the courage coat. And when it’s over, I challenge you. I invite you to try on the courage code at some point and see what might you do if you felt courageous? What might you do if you had a loving person cheering you on in your corner? What would they say to you? How would you respond? Enjoy this episode. It was so inspiring to me.

Sarah Tacy [00:02:39]:
And of course, please check out Kareem and all the places that he shows up, especially on social at chief.careem. Enjoy. Hello, and welcome to Threshold Moments. Today, we have with us Kareem Manuel. And I just told him that I’m, you know, drawing this bio together from what I picked up online. And then I will really have this next, you know, 45 minutes or so to hear more directly from him about life and who he is and what he is here for. Kareem is a father of 2. He is the founder of We Society, which you can find at we society.co.

Sarah Tacy [00:03:35]:
That motto or their motto is we are the ones we’ve been waiting for. He is the host of We Are The Ones podcast in which he talks to thought leaders, influencers, political leaders, and cultural makers to find out what sparked them to jump, take the leap of faith, take matters into their own hands, to galvanize and organize people around a common goal or agenda. The podcast talks about day to day struggles and how people overcome them, like issues of self doubt, self worth, entrepreneurial living, and being an alchemist of change within an existing infrastructure. Welcome.

Kareem Manuel [00:04:17]:
Thank you so much. That was really beautiful.

Sarah Tacy [00:04:19]:
There were your words from your podcast intro.

Kareem Manuel [00:04:22]:
I was like, I really I really resonate with it. No. Thank you so much for having me. I I really appreciate this.

Sarah Tacy [00:04:28]:
Yeah. So I became aware of you through Sarah Jenks and her husband, Jonathan.

Kareem Manuel [00:04:37]:
Mhmm.

Sarah Tacy [00:04:37]:
And started following you on Instagram. And it’s not unusual that I may have people in my life that I know for a while, and I’m not sure. I don’t ask them to come on the podcast until there’s this, like, little pull that kinda hooks me about bit. And you had you had one post where you showed yourself changing over time. And many of us change over time, and sometimes it’s obvious from the outside and sometimes it’s not. And this podcast is called Threshold Moments. And if I could just describe a threshold moment the way I see it and then ask you perhaps what that threshold was for you. So this is possibly so we’re on a similar page or is that the listeners might think of a threshold.

Sarah Tacy [00:05:31]:
I think of my teacher’s chart called the cycle of awareness. And at the beginning, we have the normal state, the state that we’re used to. And then at some point, something interrupts that flow. And it could be having children. It could be just that how we are, it starts to feel like friction in our bodies. It could be a diagnosis, an accident. It could be imperceptible, but something just doesn’t jive. And the next stage often tends to be chaos and confusion.

Sarah Tacy [00:06:03]:
Like, I’m trying to use all the tools I have. I’m doing everything I know how to do, but things are different, so it doesn’t work. Mhmm. Then there’s a fertile void where you it’s it’s often you know, if you believe in god, then it would be like I it doesn’t have to be that either. It’s just kind of like, I don’t know. I’ve tried everything. It doesn’t work. And in that fertile void, we might come out, who knows, months, years later, and have some inspiration and then insight and then integration and then in the evolved state of norm.

Sarah Tacy [00:06:36]:
And, the cycle continues.

Kareem Manuel [00:06:38]:
Absolutely.

Sarah Tacy [00:06:39]:
So that, like, even though you’re like, evolved state of norm, it’s not the end. It’s never the end. We just keep cycling. And I’m wondering, for us, if there is a point that you could share that felt like one of these thresholds where what once worked was clearly no longer going to work for you? Absolutely.

Kareem Manuel [00:07:04]:
Man, what I’m appreciating about this time of reflection is I don’t like to spend so much time in the past, like, pining for the past or even, like, rehearsing traumas or but I do think it’s something special about looking back to give thanks and to be aware of the growth of the patterns. And so when I’m looking back, for me, it’s 2017. I’ve been married for 10 years. I was an evangelical pastor, devout as devout could be, learning Hebrew so I could know the old testament better, learning Greek so I could speak the New Testament better. I got married at 21. I had my first child at 23, my second at 25. And so my 20s, I’m building a family. I’m starting organizations and businesses that are to what I believe is like the glory of God.

Kareem Manuel [00:08:07]:
And I do not care about money at all. I’m just about reaching the people, loving the people. And I had a friend who was going to the church that I was pastoring, who was an accountant, who asked me to help do my taxes 1 year. And I really just wanted to spend more time with him. I didn’t care about the taxes at all, but and he’s he’s going through my taxes, and he’s, like, how are you living on this much money?

Sarah Tacy [00:08:32]:
And, you know, because it was

Kareem Manuel [00:08:33]:
not a lot at all. And being poor was so regular common to me. I was I was fine, but it was definitely a struggle. And I remember moving to Atlanta, I had the opportunity to completely change my work and living situation and my family situation and go from making, you know, 35,000 a year to over 6 figures doing the same work. But then moving away put a lot of stress on all of my relations. And then Donald Trump came down the escalator and said he was running for president. And what that triggered was this series of events where people was just really mean to each other. Oh, man.

Kareem Manuel [00:09:22]:
Just mean and afraid and angry, And, you know, I experienced this lifetime as a black man, and so just, like, all of the energy that came from there and the feelings of, like, am I gonna be safe? There’s historically I haven’t been safe. You know, I’m at a place where at least there’s not violence every day. But the rhetoric, the way it sounds, not just from this person who’s running for

Sarah Tacy [00:09:49]:
president, but from from everybody on

Kareem Manuel [00:09:49]:
down, just the us versus you, you versus us, whatever that even means, and just the anger. And I just remember and I was £250. I was on 7 medications every day. I’ve been going to the doctor for 5 years trying to get better. And so when you say, you you know, part of the cycle where you’re just like, this isn’t working. I just remember being in my basement of my house one day, I’m 30 years old, and I’m screaming to the air, like, somebody needs to come do something about this. It’s so much going wrong. And not just the stuff that’s affecting me.

Kareem Manuel [00:10:29]:
There’s kids enslaved right now digging for cobalt and diamonds, and the the schools in my neighborhoods and neighborhoods I grew up in historically are always terrible and not capable to teach our children. People can’t even eat dinner at Thanksgiving anymore because of what’s happening in politics. Like, we’re so angry about a title that we can’t even, like, be family. I was just lost and angry and just said, somebody needs to come and fix this. And then it was like a jolt in my spirit to myself to myself. Absolutely. That’s why you’re here. And from that moment, it was just clear.

Kareem Manuel [00:11:10]:
It’s like, oh, it’s on me. It’s on us. We’re the ones that we’re waiting for. There’s there’s nobody else coming that needs to come. So that led me on a whole long thing. I’ll let you ask some more questions, but that was 2017. January 3, 2017 was just out of body experience in my body. Enough is enough.

Kareem Manuel [00:11:34]:
And I don’t even know what comes next, but I know I’m done with this. I’m done with the fear. I’m done with not saying what I really feel. I’m done with going along to get along. I’m done with looking for something outside of me to rescue me. Yeah. That was it.

Sarah Tacy [00:11:52]:
Yeah. Wanting to feel into this moment a little bit of this jolt coming through you. There have been a few times in my life where I feel like I actually hear the word of god. Yeah. And it’s often not quite what I, like, not quite what I wanted to hear. Like, the the direction is like, oh, that’s not that’s not the answer I wanted.

Kareem Manuel [00:12:17]:
At all.

Sarah Tacy [00:12:19]:
But this yeah. What I’m hearing is like a light bulb moment where when you do hear that word, when you do feel what I’m hearing in your body, you feel that that there is no going back. Like, there is this once you know, you know, and there’s no going back. And I’m thinking about it’s it’s often quite interesting, the sequence of the people that I interview that Andrea Isabel Lucas was right before this, and her moment was in a hospital and realizing, oh, no one’s coming to save me. I know. Going, oh.

Kareem Manuel [00:12:51]:
The and there’s an acceptance. There’s a surrender that I think someone has to have for it to mean anything. I had someone come in our store and they saw we are the ones we’re waiting for and she clutched her heart and said, I don’t wanna be the one I’m waiting for. And I think that happens a lot. Like, there’s a choice, consciously or unconsciously, of, like, no. It’s not me. It can’t be me. But it is.

Kareem Manuel [00:13:18]:
And so, yeah, I remember asking my doctor to his face after 5 years taking 5 pills and 2 sprays every day and 4 surgeries, being diabetic and high blood pressure and high cholesterol and sleep apnea and chronic fatigue and chronic bronchitis, just saying, doc, when am I going to be healed? And he looked at me like I was speaking Chinese. And so I he said, I said, when will I be healed? When will I be done with this? You just keep giving me more drugs, and now you’re recommending more surgeries. And he’s like, well, this runs to your family. And I was like, I do not ex I do not accept that my genetics are just weak. I do not accept that this planet is out to get me, that the planet that I was born on is making me sick. No. I belong here. I’m doing something wrong.

Kareem Manuel [00:14:11]:
I’m not following the path that’s for me. It was so clear, and I don’t know what that path is, but I’m off of this one. I know which one it is not. It is not what I was doing, and I’m gonna go and be a student and learn. And, oh my god, I’m so grateful. I am so grateful that I did.

Sarah Tacy [00:14:29]:
I brought this up in the last conversation, so I’m not sure if it’s worth saying it again. But it’s maybe I’m saying it for myself is a phrase I learned from Boyd Varty who is a lion tracker and, I would say, a shaman and a coach. And it’s the idea of the path of not here. And so when you knew, I don’t know what it is, but it’s not this. What great information that is?

Kareem Manuel [00:15:03]:
The data is right there.

Sarah Tacy [00:15:05]:
Yeah. I know. Even before you know the next right step, knowing that this is not it and having that clarity is so huge. Because the way I hear the situation that you’re in is, no. We’re gonna give you this medication forever so that you can stay just stay the course. Yeah. Not get better. This isn’t here to heal you.

Sarah Tacy [00:15:29]:
This is just here to keep you on this cycle.

Kareem Manuel [00:15:33]:
It brought up so many questions for me. You know, how many of these situations are in my life already of varying degrees and levels of how I’m living in my life? What foods am I eating that make me feel bad that I just do because this this holiday or this birthday or this special occasion or this programming? What thoughts am I accepting? Because that’s just part of the program. I’m just getting older, so my body’s breaking down. Inflation, and so money is tied to like, whatever the truth that I’m accepting, how much of it is just bullshit? How much of it is just wrong for me, and why am I so afraid to try something new? This is how I had to speak to myself. I know I don’t like what’s going on. The way I eat now, I laughed at myself back then. I laughed at people who ate, like, you know, just vegetables and fruits, and, I mean, I thought it was the craziest thing in the world. And then I remember laughing to myself about the idea and then saying, if I cannot imagine my own self eating better, who will? If I can’t imagine it for myself, who is going to? Nobody else is going see it better.

Kareem Manuel [00:16:52]:
That makes a difference for me. I have to grab a hold to this vision and just trust. And it was and is the absolute most frightening thing to say yes and you don’t even know. Because that’s why I I said yes to myself. Yes. Yes. I will go. I said yes to God.

Kareem Manuel [00:17:14]:
It was like, absolutely. I’m coming, and I’ll figure it out on the way. And it’s really beautiful how the higher self, how the voice of god works. It’s like it just keeps drawing you. Like, the the way is revealed on the way.

Sarah Tacy [00:17:31]:
Yes. Yes. Somebody came on, Janine Yoder, and said, when you’re following the bread crumbs, you’re not throwing your own bread crumbs in front of you, which is how our society would have us think. Yep. What’s your 5 year plan? What’s your 10 year plan? How are you gonna get there? And that would have us throwing the bread crumbs and then saying, I’m following the bread crumbs, versus, like, actually just, like, foraging. Okay. Got it. Okay.

Sarah Tacy [00:17:57]:
Not here.

Kareem Manuel [00:17:59]:
Not here. I love that.

Sarah Tacy [00:18:02]:
Yeah. Me too. That’s that’s why I had to bring it up again.

Kareem Manuel [00:18:05]:
Okay. Not here. That’s such good information, but it’s just like, okay.

Sarah Tacy [00:18:10]:
The path of not here. Mhmm. Yeah. And I wonder if you could say a thing or 2 about that changing of patterns from familiar to optimal. Like, what I I have a vision of what that looks like to our cells on a cellular level, and I’m wondering if you could share what it felt like and what it looked like.

Kareem Manuel [00:18:33]:
So I’m in the middle of it again now. As you said, the cycles, you know, be so 7 years in, and I feel it happening so clearly again now, but I’m so much better prepared because I’ve seen it before even though I still don’t know what’s next. At the time, it was both exhilarating. There were times where I would pretend to put on a courage jacket and just have a jacket of courage. And I would say to myself, if I was courageous right now, what would I say? What would I do? In the middle of a conversation, I would be saying to myself, if I wasn’t afraid of how they would respond, I wasn’t afraid of losing this connection or embarrassing myself, what would I say? What’s the truth? And it’s it it jostled with how much untruth I was sharing and withholding and and living. I would, yeah, I would just pretend to be a a brave man. I would say to myself, if I had a good father right now, what would he say to me? And then what I imagine my father saying to me, I would I would try to do anything that I was afraid of that caused anxiety in me that I could step into, I was gonna step through the anxiety. So I went side diving, I went scuba diving, I went I fed lions.

Kareem Manuel [00:19:53]:
And just that process of meeting the fear face to face and saying I see you, I feel you still, and I’m still gonna do this, By the 3rd activity, I wasn’t afraid anymore. Now I was I learned that that anxiety really was excitement. I wanted this to go well. I wanted to enjoy this and I had been twisting it so much, out of fear that it was feeling like anxiety. I remember being 5 days into eating differently. I decided I was gonna run a mile every day no matter how long it took, and I started eating fruit for breakfast and lunch and some type of salad or something for dinner. I didn’t tell anybody. And 5 days in, I took a deep breath for the first time in years.

Kareem Manuel [00:20:35]:
I mean, I felt my lungs just pop open. I was taking a regular breath, but it just said, boop. And I looked around to see if anybody else saw it or heard it, And I knew it was for me, and I had tears in my eyes, and I just said, oh, this is for me. I’m not a I don’t need to convince anybody else this is how they need to eat. I don’t need to fight with anybody else about like, I’m I’m feeling my mind and my body heal itself. It’s the most intoxicating, powerful feeling to feel the energy coursing through your blood, especially as I say to my children a lot, like, I was dying. I know I was dying. Because I feel so alive now, I can look back and say, oh, I really felt bad.

Kareem Manuel [00:21:24]:
I felt terrible. And to feel my sales, it felt like they were drinking. Like, it was just, like, just drinking water and air and oxygen. And the more I felt good, the more I wanted to feel good. And so it became easier and easier to make the choices that were speeding this fire of, like, love and adventure. And so, yeah, now I’m 7 years in. I couldn’t I can’t imagine I can’t imagine living another way. I hope that answers your question.

Sarah Tacy [00:21:55]:
That was awesome. That was so great. I love the courage fest. You know, there’s that saying, if I knew I couldn’t fail, what would I do? There’s something like that. I used to have that written on a piece of paper, and then I would kind of just let it get lost. And it would show up, like, over maybe it was a 7 year period. Like, it would show up when I was moving or it would show and at some point, I lost it, lost it. And I wanna say I prefer yours.

Sarah Tacy [00:22:26]:
I really love the if I was a brave man, if I am courageous in this moment, if I had a good father, what would he say to me right now? Like, these are you know, Tony Robbins often says, our life is decided by the quality of our questions. And

Kareem Manuel [00:22:42]:
Yes.

Sarah Tacy [00:22:43]:
What powerful questions to ask yourself in the moment. I used to train athletes, and one of the biggest things was to get feedback in the moment. And that was how we would change our patterns, not hearing it later. So you were getting yourself in the moment of change and being this phenomenal coach to yourself. And I’ll just say the other thing that I like about we society when it says, like, we are the ones who are waiting for, sometimes, if you have taken your whole life where you are your own caretaker as a child and you didn’t have someone really take care, you’d be like, me again? Like, I Right. I’ve been having my own back forever and, like, this this overinflated independence where we think that is where our value comes from. And I’m I’m also liking so in your story, there is an element of something beyond you and something within you. And then I’m guessing from your brand that there’s also an element of community.

Sarah Tacy [00:23:41]:
It’s like not, I am the one. I’m the only one. It’s like, we are the ones we’ve been waiting for. And so there is this, like, really beautiful tying. I see a triad of, like, self, something beyond self that’s divine and guiding and community. And this is, like, a really beautiful thing. And I wanna say as I say that, I’m like, and you really pointed out that when you changed your eating, you didn’t share it with anybody. And for me, like, some people do that to help get coached along.

Sarah Tacy [00:24:12]:
And I can really see how powerful that is to do it just for yourself without, like I don’t need to hear anybody else’s opinions on

Kareem Manuel [00:24:20]:
this. Oh, you know, man, I love everything you just shared. I know I wasted so much time. I I there was no wasting. But I spent a lot of time trying to build consensus about my life, and it just didn’t work, especially when the people that I’m around and connected with are in the same predicaments that I’m in. I heard myself telling me to shush. Kareem, if you knew how to be healthy, you would be being healthy. You don’t know.

Kareem Manuel [00:24:57]:
You need to listen. Then it’s like, well, listen to who and to what. Because the people I’ve been hanging out with, we’re all in similar spaces. It’s like, so listen to that. And so and and to me, that’s encapsulated in the not here. Okay. This isn’t it. That’s something crossed off the list.

Kareem Manuel [00:25:14]:
I’m wiser now. And so, yeah, just listening and then in Rasta culture we say I and I. So when I say we, it’s all the I’s. It’s healthy, loving individuals that make a we. And for me, the we is not possible without the I. And so when I pray for we, I’m praying for me And the way I contribute the absolute best that I have is by being the best that I have and sharing that. And so, like, we like, the tenets of we is, like, we have everything we need. In the we, all the information that needs to be gathered and gleaned and understood about how to live is here.

Kareem Manuel [00:25:59]:
All the resource, everything that we need. And so I love that you are picking up on that. It is completely communal. It is not hyper individualism. It’s healthy individualism. It’s communal interdependence. If I’m gonna be dependable, it’s like I know that because I can depend on myself. I can set a boundary and keep it.

Kareem Manuel [00:26:21]:
You know, I’m disciplined. I’m disciplined in how I eat. I’m disciplined with my schedule. I’m disciplined. So if I tell you I’m gonna do something or intend to do something with you, like, the chances of it coming to fruition are very high. And so it’s easier to depend on me. It’s not about being perfect even though I like to say I think that we are perfect. I think we’re perfect just as we are.

Kareem Manuel [00:26:44]:
I think that whatever is going on in our lives is perfect for what we need to become us. And so when I hear people say, like, oh, you know, no nobody’s perfect, and I go, no. Everyone’s perfect. It’s perfect. And that is a practice for me. And so even though I might not execute at the level that I want to every single day, I am moving towards that, those bread crumbs, continue to gather. And when it’s not here and sometimes it was here and now it’s not.

Sarah Tacy [00:27:18]:
Yes.

Kareem Manuel [00:27:20]:
I’m too I’m too big for this faith now, or I don’t need as much faith now. Like, our as we’re growing and evolving and morphing, sometimes the path changes. And to stay in tune and to stay walking to realize, oh, this path has served its purpose and I let it go in love and now I’m on to something else. I just think, at least for me, that’s what I’m here for in life. I’m here I’m here to honor the I and I, the oneness of all, and the individual expressions of that oneness.

Sarah Tacy [00:27:53]:
When you began to make these changes in your life, how did it affect your parenting?

Kareem Manuel [00:28:01]:
I was raised in purity culture. So sex was something that everybody thought about, but it was shame. The only information we got from older people were about the negatives that could come from it. You can get on with the pregnancy, on with the disease, and your life would be over. I remember some young girls who were teens in my church. Anytime one of them got pregnant, they would have to stand on stage and, like, apologize to the congregation. And it’s hurtful because that’s hurtful, but we also know that these people loved us, and that’s what they thought was the best. Mhmm.

Kareem Manuel [00:28:37]:
I got whoopings and spankings, and there were times I definitely felt misunderstood. My parents would look at my face and think I was making a face, and I’m like, this is just my face. I I’m not even thinking about what that what I don’t even know what you’re thinking I’m thinking, but I was thinking about video games or something else. So all that to say, when I had Steel Gen, I was very dogmatic. I was very afraid. You’re a black man. I have 2 young black boys. You’re a black man in America.

Kareem Manuel [00:29:10]:
These are the rules, the lessons. These are the things you need to know. I’ll spank them every now and then, but nothing like what I had to experience and what I had experienced from other friends and people that I grew up with. After slavery, physical violence to teach people how to behave was a very common practice. And so when I woke up, the first thing I did was, like, I’m not yelling at them, I’m not spanking them, and the amount of people that said I was insane, I mean, all over the place that we’re gonna eat like this. We were eating this way, and everybody was sick. We’re gonna eat this way now because I love you. I’m gonna make it fun.

Kareem Manuel [00:29:53]:
We started I started farming and growing our own food. And I just would like to report, like, the relationship we have now is an absolute it’s a dream. It’s a dream because they they know I love them. And not just in a word, but indeed, they’re free to share what they think. They disagree with me. They have their own voices. They make their own choices up to a point where I’m like, hey. This is how we have to do this, and I’m your father.

Kareem Manuel [00:30:24]:
You gotta trust me on this one. And it’s like it is it’s there. There’s nothing on the table that can’t be discussed and hasn’t been discussed. With love. We laugh from our bellies. But sometimes I’m looking around, and I’m just like, wow. What a blessed life. Like, we’re so connected, and they’re still themselves.

Kareem Manuel [00:30:46]:
And it was frightening because I had never seen anything like this. I remember somebody saying, well, how are they gonna learn to respect you if you don’t do this or that? And I was like, he’s 5. Why do I need his respect? What am I missing that I’m trying to force this being, this 5 years old, to respect me? He doesn’t even know respect. Like, he’ll respect me because of how I carry myself is what I’m banking on. And if I’m not if not, that’s more data. Not this way. That’s what I always I always say. It’s like, we need the data.

Kareem Manuel [00:31:19]:
We have to try something new because this way isn’t working. I could go on and on about parenting. It’s my absolute favorite thing. But, yes, everything changed, and I feel I love took the driver’s seat, oh, as opposed to fear and trauma and drama, just love. And, yeah, that feels the best.

Sarah Tacy [00:31:48]:
I ask you about parenting because I would recommend to anyone who’s listening to check Kareem out on Instagram. I’m sure you you probably have other platforms as the one I use.

Kareem Manuel [00:31:58]:
No. Not really.

Sarah Tacy [00:31:59]:
No. Okay. You

Kareem Manuel [00:32:00]:
know, you’re like, that’s

Sarah Tacy [00:32:01]:
that’s the

Kareem Manuel [00:32:01]:
one I understand the best.

Sarah Tacy [00:32:03]:
Chief dot careen. Is that correct?

Kareem Manuel [00:32:05]:
Right. Yep.

Sarah Tacy [00:32:06]:
There are so many beautiful videos of you and your sons really going through a human experience of each other. I’m thinking of 1 even right now of when you were jumping on a rope swing into a river. The way that your boys were coaching you. Right? Like, so it’s like, yes. You I mean, there are so many videos where you are giving them these experiences that they’ve never had before and, like, really showing that you really listen to what they care about and what they want and helping to create opportunities for them that they, perhaps, haven’t had before that are really meaningful to them. Not like you want it for them. It’s like they want it for them, and you listened and responded. There was a call and response.

Sarah Tacy [00:32:48]:
And then there’s this one of you jumping into the water, and I think your boys are like, you got this. Like, they’re cheering you on, and it’s so great. Your kids are most likely responding to you the way that you responded to them.

Kareem Manuel [00:33:01]:
100%. I’m talking about word for word. And it was so beautiful, that moment, because I was really afraid. And I had tire you know, I in Jamaica, when I went to visit, I jumped off the tire swing no problem. But this one was different for me in my mind how the setup was. It just I wasn’t sure my body could execute, and so I’m like, I actually don’t have to do it. And when I’m hearing them say back to me from this place of, like, embodiment of, you know, 1, it’s okay if I don’t, but then 2, it’s like you can do this, and how much fun and hope I could hear in their voices. And so now I’m talking to my own self.

Kareem Manuel [00:33:48]:
I hear their voice, but I’m speaking to my own self and saying, like, yes. You are totally within your rights to say, like, no. I’m 38 years old. I don’t need to do this. I I you know? And there’s no judgment if I don’t. I feel in bringing myself in this way has helped me take so many steps when it’s like, yeah. I could stop right here and that is a okay. But I’m hearing the wonder, the joy, the boyish energy, the childlike faith that I wanna have calling to me.

Kareem Manuel [00:34:20]:
And I’m like, I have to go. I have to do this even though I’m scared. And how much has that served me in my life over these last 7 years where it’s like, yeah. I am scared, and I can quit right now, and no one could say anything to me. I will be well within my rights. And then just a little boy in me is like, but it’ll be so fucked. You can do it. And then to do it, oh, man.

Kareem Manuel [00:34:49]:
And just the joy. We talked about it this morning. It was, you know, with my youngest, we just had a a beautiful experience yesterday, and I could see Matthew was overwhelmed in the beginning and nervous, but he just met it. And he just kept going through. And at the end, he was just in the flow state. And so we talked about what that feels like in Kundalini and all these things. And I just shared, like, yeah, there are times, like, at this river where I’m afraid. And when I go anyway, 97% of the time, I learn there wasn’t even anything to be afraid of.

Kareem Manuel [00:35:23]:
That was all in here. And I don’t ever learn that until I step in it. I don’t know it until I step in the fire and go, this is not a fire. It’s like the monster under my bed. Once I finally go down there, it’s like, that’s not a monster. It’s a sock. It’s making you know, I’m very grateful I’m very grateful to have them because they provide so much space and opportunity for those lessons to come up. And as much as I feel a responsibility to share them with them, it’s still feeding and watering me in tremendous ways.

Kareem Manuel [00:35:57]:
So just growth and development and fearlessness and adventure and being at all with life and the life that they have and letting them have and honor their own lives, their own voice, their own choice about wherever they think their path has taken them. It’s a it’s an exquisite, just delicious journey for sure.

Sarah Tacy [00:36:18]:
I’d love to highlight one more thing, which is you said that they can feel your love. And my husband and I worked with a guy. He called himself a developmentalist. We were kind of at this crossroads with one of our well, you know, she’s older now, but clearly, like, something, some patterning, and we want us to do better. Yeah. My thinking in this moment, there was like I’m thinking of this this idea of how my husband thought about respect. I’ll give a really small example. Like, she should look adults in the eyes and say thank you and say goodbye.

Sarah Tacy [00:36:59]:
And that might be something that I might be like, yeah. But, like, he’d say, actually, when she feels safe, right, when she feels safe, it’s not even gonna be a question. You don’t have to say, Sofia, look them in the eyes. Sofia, do this. But the safer you make her feel, the more natural it’s gonna be for her to want to make contact with adults, to want to look in their eyes. So that is actually a reflection of her safety. So just like you said, like, what is it in you that feels like do you feel like you’re gonna be judged by your parents if she doesn’t look them in the eyes? So is like, are you using your child to feel worthy in front of your parents? You know, kind of flipping and it’s like, oh, shit. Indeed.

Sarah Tacy [00:37:43]:
And another one is how, say, there’s a a parenting style where there is a lot of, like, you you must do these things. You must behave these ways. And by the way, I love you so much. So they’re hearing I love you so much. But what they’re feeling is, and you must act this way in order to keep it. And so the words I love you, like, hearing the words I love you from somebody when there’s a dissonance in how you feel can feel like a demand. So it can be like a demand on a child. If you’re like, I love you.

Sarah Tacy [00:38:19]:
I love you. And you you wanna get about like, how parents can use their children to co regulate them. I had a hard day. Can I have a hug? I love you so much. But when you are showing your kids love and you show your kids respect and maybe give like, if I were to make a mistake, like, can I have a redo? I’m so sorry. I noticed I acted out. I was frustrated. I wasn’t able to handle that.

Sarah Tacy [00:38:45]:
But then they start to just, like, want to come, and and they feel the love through your actions, through your attention. And now the phrase I love you is not a demand. It is in resonance and incoherence, and it just It’s affirmation. Confusing.

Kareem Manuel [00:39:03]:
I love that.

Sarah Tacy [00:39:04]:
Sometimes it can feel really confusing for a kid, and we think that we’re saying something nice, and why don’t they get it? Or yeah. And I just I really see that with your kids. And when you said that your kids feel your love, it reminded me of these scenarios where I could start to differentiate a little bit more in our own lives, in our own parenting, where we were off and where we could get better, and what it feels like when we align with it more.

Kareem Manuel [00:39:28]:
And to me, this sounds like, you know, you’re asking yourself great questions. Why do we want this? Why do we need this? You know, for for in my culture, it’s like, yeah. You say yes, sir, no, sir, or look them in the eyes, shake their hand, blah blah. But I would see them, like, you know, be nervous. And it’s and I remember asking. It’s like, do they have space to express nervousness, to express anxiety, to express discomfort? I don’t wanna talk to anybody. You know? And how much more different would they act if they felt safe enough to express themselves in a safe way. And so, yes, I I I agree with everything you’re saying.

Kareem Manuel [00:40:10]:
It’s like the love has to be tangible when it’s manip it’s manipulative another way. I love you, so you must. And if you do what you must, then I give the love.

Sarah Tacy [00:40:20]:
And I give you shelter. I give you food. And I tell you I love you. And, actually, you need those to survive. So

Kareem Manuel [00:40:26]:
That’s just Maslow’s hierarchy. That’s the base level base level living, and the children didn’t ask to be here. So I when I teach people, I said, so many people, at least in this country, use their children like pets that are obligated to love them and that look like them. So it’s like all this ego sourcing, and that’s really what I hoped to drown. It’s like, yeah, the ego’s defeating my ego. You don’t wanna try hard in school, you don’t have to try hard in school, but this is your life. And I can tell you from the day that I had that if you don’t try hard, these are the patterns that you’re making. This is how it’s showing up in your life.

Kareem Manuel [00:41:07]:
And if you do try hard, these are the potentials, the opportunities. Nothing is guaranteed, but I except for I can guarantee if you don’t try, you end up with less than you deserve, for sure. That’s how we’re coming at it, as opposed to, you need straight a’s and then I’ll give you this. And for years, I watched them, like, kinda struggle. I don’t like to read. I don’t wanna do this. And then it starts clicking because they feel supported. And that’s it’s really what we want.

Kareem Manuel [00:41:33]:
We want love, connection, support. We wanna feel safe. And if we do, we normally will meet those that we love in what in, like, powerful ways and wonderful ways. And you you’re married now. Like, you you’ve been in love. You know how you show up when you feel loved. It’s not even a question. How much further you’ll go, how much more you’ll give, how much deeper you’ll receive.

Kareem Manuel [00:41:58]:
It’s it’s almost like a reflex, a reaction to the love, And I think we can have that with our children. That’s how I feel about it. I just had to let go of everything you just said, trying to prove anything, look like anything, sourcing from them, co right. Using them to regulate my own emotions. Yeah. They’re not my pets. Then they they have their own lives, their own path, their own purpose, and I am blessed to be able to steward it, to be able to see it and be a part of it if I choose to accept that call. Then that’s it.

Kareem Manuel [00:42:31]:
Otherwise, you know, kinda back off.

Sarah Tacy [00:42:36]:
I I feel silly. I’m about to use the word specialized, and I’m not sure. Maybe I could say I take great great interest and spend a lot of time in the field of trauma physiology and nervous system resourcing and support. And so more, I would say, nervous system resourcing and support. And perhaps the first phrase came out because trauma physiology is often present when we feel alone and without choice. And so what I heard you just describe in parenting is giving information, which, again, in that world would be called, like, orientation. Like, here’s some orientation points. Yep.

Sarah Tacy [00:43:15]:
Here’s where you are, and here’s some choice. And the trauma physiology is that there is no choice. And that even though other people were around, we felt really alone in our situation and felt helpless and stuck. And so when I hear you say, well, my kids were nervous and they didn’t wanna look up. And then what would it look like if I gave them space to be nervous? Then it’s like, oh, you get being nervous and seen in your nervousness, and I will still be here as a stable other while you’re nervous. And and then in all these areas of life, I’m gonna give you the information I have if, you know, if you want it. And and I also know parenting does need to, like, have some boundaries. And I’m hearing, like, these are your choices.

Sarah Tacy [00:44:00]:
Yep. If the opposite of trauma physiology, I I imagine it to be a form of liberation, and I think that’s an incredible gift.

Kareem Manuel [00:44:09]:
I love the language you’re using. I love it. I love it very much. It’s beautiful. One short example, you know, using the school with the boundaries. I agree, is, like, hey, you’re going to this school. While you’re in my care, this is the choice that I can make. You get to choose how you’re gonna be in that school, if you’re going to engage or not engage, if you’re going to if your grades start slipping, you are gonna go to the tutoring.

Kareem Manuel [00:44:36]:
I went to school. That’s the choice that I get to make. You get to decide if you’re gonna fall asleep, if you’re gonna listen, if you’re going to who you are in the environment is your choice. You have they have great say over their environment, but not all the say. They have great say over the what they eat, but not all the say. While I still have this role and they’re at these ages. And I just think it’s been a good dance in that way where it’s like, yep. Because what I experienced and what I had noticed was when we become adults, it’s the first time we really have or a practice choice unless we’re, like, betraying or disrespecting boundaries that have been set for us when we’re younger.

Kareem Manuel [00:45:18]:
And so it’s like the first time you get into practice with choice around certain major ideas is when you finally get away from the home. And I said, what would it look like if you were loved and got to practice the choice in the home? So your first time experiencing these things isn’t when you’re out and you’re talking to other people who have also not experienced it, trying to give each other advice. And I’ve just seen that be the absolute worst concoction. It’s just like

Sarah Tacy [00:45:43]:
I’m just thinking even if they broke the rules that they had, you know, and you said when they break away, I don’t see that as choice. I see that as fight or flight response. I see that as a fight response. Right? And so, yeah, actual choice where there’s autonomy, and then we still have that we scenario of, like, and you’re not alone. And roll clarity. I’m the parent, and I will have these safety structures where it is safe for you to make these choices. It’s just really beautiful. And, again, for listeners, I think Instagram can feel many ways to a system or a body.

Sarah Tacy [00:46:20]:
But if one were to spend time there, it’s nice to have accounts that are really inspiring and uplifting and show a better way that things can be. Because as you said, as you were doing this, you hadn’t necessarily seen that this weight would work. Like, what’s gonna happen? I’m just really trying my best to make a moment by moment what is a better way.

Kareem Manuel [00:46:47]:
And and I say that to them. There are times where I’m like, guys, I do not know the answer. I’m not sure. What you just did felt so wrong to me, and I do not know an appropriate response. Because I wanna choke you. And even that’s been good to just acknowledge, like, I don’t know that I’m gonna make this choice because I think it’s it’s the best I have in this moment. We go to therapy together now. We just started counseling together as we deal with their mother and I separated 8 years ago.

Kareem Manuel [00:47:22]:
But now as they’re going through their teens, there’s just friction of things coming up. And, you know, I said to the therapist, because she was being very truthful and saying things that I had not yet said to them about just our relationship and what it what it feels like as a man on this side. And she’s, you know, this African woman, and she’s just in a very loving, almost, like, motherly way, grandmotherly way, sharing the truth. And I said to her, I was like, I haven’t said that yet to them. I wasn’t sure what was healthy or not. And she looked me in my face, and she said, these are young men. They’re young men just like you, and they need to know what’s happening. They need the truth.

Kareem Manuel [00:48:02]:
And I really respected that. And and they seemed so at peace and happy to be being told the truth, to being trusted with the truth and invited in. So I don’t know what just made me think about that, but I do know I was very appreciative of that moment a few weeks ago. It’s, like, yeah, these are young our children are young people just like us. We’re gonna have questions and concerns just like us. And what did what did I need growing up? Did I need more yelling and misunderstandings and and beatings and stepping over the boundaries, or did I just need a safe space to not know and to be able to ask questions and to laugh and feel a part of the tribe, then how much can I bring that to bear and stay within myself and not do more than I could do, not I’d definitely not use it to win their love somehow? But I’ve done all this for you, so now you have to do all these things. It’s like they’re separate. They’re completely independent.

Kareem Manuel [00:49:02]:
That’s what just came up for me. That’s what I heard you share.

Sarah Tacy [00:49:06]:
Two places I wanna go right now. Some of it is the men’s work that you do and the other and, like, I see our time. So, shoot. Time and space. Thank you. And the other portion is just I’ll let you choose. Here we go. You get to choose.

Sarah Tacy [00:49:23]:
Hey. 1 is would be around the men’s work that you’ve experienced and being with other men. And I I believe a lot of that has been through Sacred Suns, and I don’t know if it’s also been in other avenues as well. And the other question would be around music and I don’t know if style would be the right word, but clothing line and music and how that is also an outlet. And so I’m just feeling myself equally interested, and I’m not sure if you have a direction or, like, a thing to say on each one that could fit here.

Kareem Manuel [00:50:00]:
I’ll try to merge them for a second time.

Sarah Tacy [00:50:03]:
There we go.

Kareem Manuel [00:50:04]:
I am walking under the hypothesis of what feels like to me a belief at this time that we are programmed and are programming and reprogramming ourselves every day. And that we can be conscious about it, which makes it different than a habit, or we can be unconscious about whatever program we’re a part of. And there are small programs and then there are massive ones that, you know, take years to play out, but you, you know, keep looking up. And so with the men’s work that I’ve done and the music, the reason I’m involved in either one is because I I believe culture, the establishing of culture, the engaging with culture is a very powerful tool to help reveal programs, to help establish and implement programs that can either be helpful or destructive. And since we’re going to be together anyway, this is our planet anyway, this is our life. Anyhow, I choose to love and be at peace with as many living beings and nonliving beings as I can. And so I’ll be at Sacred Suns in September at the co ed when the first co ed when they’re ever hosting, and I’ll be there as an artist. And what I found in doing both the work by the reason I make clothes, do music, go to these retreats is because I think having something that you can affirm and then repeat and then measure yourself by.

Kareem Manuel [00:51:42]:
When you brought up my Instagram post, having the photos and the videos to be able to go back and say, in 2017, then 18, 19, to to now 20 24, I’m a £100 down. I’m off all my medications. I’m look 10 years younger. What that does to me for the next 10 years in affirming how capable I am to change my my circumstance, to change my environment if I so choose, believe we can also do for our our emotional bodies, our psychological bodies. And so music is the soundtrack to the movie of our lives. Clothing is one of many ways we can express ourselves. And then these retreats where we do the men’s work is a place where men get to come and just really be themselves, sometimes even be offered for the first time in a long time the space to even acknowledge you don’t know who yourself is. And if people are there experiencing that, what type of music will help them on the journey? You know, when we’re in ceremony, there are certain songs that can just help the prayer go deep.

Kareem Manuel [00:52:48]:
When when somebody’s, like, trying to access pain, the thing kept hidden away for years years years, and we start hitting the drum and it’s just you feel it in your sacral, in your root. It just is a great assist if you wanna use it to tap into that space. It’s and so those are how those things marry together. And I could I mean, I could go for hours about that. I know I like to talk when I’m asking questions. But my prayer in all of these things, the way I see them interwoven is that we are and that I am a part of weaving and crafting a dynamic culture, a lifestyle of being. Not with rules and like, you have to dress like this to be part of a lifestyle. It’s wildly accepting of all peoples who are seeking love as the way of seeking togetherness and unity, understanding, and peace, that’s seeking the wellness of we.

Kareem Manuel [00:53:47]:
That’s really why I do it. It’s been amazing to witness, to be around so many men. I hear I hear a lot of bashing of men, but I spent so much time with men really trying to stand against some really evil practices, and and there’s not a lot of information about how to do it well. So we’re creating it now. And so I just give a lot of grace, a lot of gratitude, a lot of appreciation for the men that show up to do it, and then that they, you know, have some cool music to vibe to as we process.

Sarah Tacy [00:54:23]:
As you said that about the drum, I thought about I don’t listen to the Emerald a lot. Mostly, I don’t listen to podcasts a lot, interestingly. What I have heard, it’s it’s really a beautiful, beautiful podcast. And there was one called something like we we won’t psychologize the revolution. The revolution will not be psychologized. And at one point, he’s like, there’s just something that happens when you’re in the 3rd hour of a drum circle that can’t be psychologized. Right? And so there are these things that we do where we can talk. And right now we’re having a conversation and we can orient with words.

Sarah Tacy [00:54:59]:
And there are these other things that we do alone or in community or in nature that have an effect that can’t quite be planned, but it’s an ancient wisdom that our ancestors have known for 1000 of generations.

Kareem Manuel [00:55:18]:
Absolutely.

Sarah Tacy [00:55:19]:
I don’t wanna say largely been taken away, but that’s not fully true. But in some of their forms, it feels that way. And so I love I love the integration of it all.

Kareem Manuel [00:55:32]:
That’s what we’re here for. It’s like I am I am who I am. I was born where I was born or raised where I was raised. And there’s this ancient way that calls to me in my blood and in my cells. Yeah, there’s a way for me to be myself within that. And so I’m a 100% all of those things.

Sarah Tacy [00:55:53]:
I’m gonna maybe almost end on this this line that I changed it up a little bit from your intro in the podcast, and it’s being an alchemist of change within an existing infrastructure. And that one line right there really feels like it encapsulates you and your work in this world. I often end, not always, but I often end a podcast with what I call depending on where listeners wanna stand, I could say for the reticular activating system in our brain or the universe or something divine beyond. And it’s a practice of just saying may I or show me. And if you have any more anything you wanna add too. So I’ll I’ll I’ll start here. And if you wanna add or just not, that’s great. Show me the ways that the universe, divine source, my inner knowing can guide me step by step to be a part of change.

Sarah Tacy [00:57:04]:
Show me what it looks like, what it feels like to lead from love. Remind me of the ways that I know in my blood, in my soul, the parts that often get quieted. Please give them that breath in which they remember who they are. Thank you for all the opportunity that came before this, the times that we might see that it’s the path of not here, for every moment in which we know, here I am. Thank you. Thank you for tuning in. It’s been such a pleasure. If you’re looking for added support, I’m offering a program that’s totally free called 21 days of untapped support.

Sarah Tacy [00:58:17]:
It’s pretty awesome. It’s very easy. It’s very helpful. You can find it at sarahtacey.com. And if you love this episode, please subscribe and like. Apparently, it’s wildly useful. So we could just explore what happens when you scroll down to the bottom. Subscribe, rate, maybe say a thing or 2.

Sarah Tacy [00:58:38]:
If you’re not feeling it, don’t do it. It’s totally fine. I look forward to gathering with you again. Thank you so much.