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[0:00] Music.
[0:08] I’m Sarah Tacy and this is Threshold Moments, a podcast where guests and I share stories, about the process of updating into truer versions of ourselves.
The path is unknown and the pull feels real. Together we share our grief, laughter, love and life-saving tools.
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[0:39] Join us. Today we have with us Amina AlTai, and good Lord, is this woman needed in the world right now.
She is clear and she is concise, and I ask her somewhat of a repeating question throughout the interview and she hears the intricacy of my slight pivot on the same question and she’s able to then answer it from a slightly different perspective and give a bunch of different scenarios in which we can dig deeper into understanding burnout, codependency, when we’re sourcing from a place of worthiness or a place of our wound, a place of our wholeness, or plates of our wound. She talks to us about the collective culture of coming from an Arab culture, about representing the underrepresented and helping to create healthy communities within the workplace. She talks to us about her big stop when she got a call from the doctor to say.
[1:45] You’re gonna have complete organ failure of multiple organs if you don’t come in right now. And the way that she shifted her life and her career, both the big leaps and the baby steps. Amina is filled with wisdom and I hope you tune in so that you can hear both her wisdom and her heart. So today we have with us Amina Altai. Amina Altai is a career realignment coach who helps people move move into a purpose-based career and succeed while there.
[2:17] On her website and the intro to her podcast, there’s this motto that I’ve seen and heard, make your workplace a place you freaking love, feel great and get paid, which I freaking love because sometimes you don’t get all three of those together.
So I’ll put a pin in that and come back.
[2:40] Amina has been in Entrepreneur Magazine as an expert in residence. She’s been featured in Goop, Forbes, MindBodyGreen, and NBC. Success Magazine named Amina among the 125 leaders to watch.
You can also hear Amina’s brilliance on her podcast, Amina Change Your Life.
She is currently working on her book entitled The Ambition Trap.
I want to hear about that too. Amina is a woman of color of Iraqi and Welsh descent and a proud immigrant from London.
[3:19] She is a chronic illness advocate living with one herself, working with marginalized communities to help them realize possibilities, in a way that honors their particular lived experience.
Amina, you are so needed in this world.
All the avenues that you represent through the life that you have lived and continue to live is incredibly powerful.
[3:44] And I’m so grateful that you are here and that my listeners get to learn from hearing you, your life story and the lessons you bring to your clients.
Welcome. Thank you so much, Sarah. It is a deep honor to be here and I’m so grateful for you and your thoughtfulness in all the ways.
Even the way that you shared my bio was so thoughtful and kind and generous.
So I’m just so happy to be here with you. Thank you.
It was such, you know, it’s such an honor to get to put together a bio just to read it.
And I really, as I read through your work and I know we’ve gotten to meet in person before as well, just it lights my heart up and I’m in awe of you for so many reasons and I’m excited to get to know you better. With the idea of building a little bit more of a foundation of knowing you, I’m wondering if you could speak a little bit, I’ll break this down into a few questions, but, I’m just noticing that your lineage holds so much cross-cultural norms that may or may not meet up easily. And then included in that is integrating within in your own lifetime.
So, I was wondering if we could start.
[5:12] With, it could be when you moved here, what that was like. We could start there, maybe.
What a beautiful question. I don’t think anyone has ever asked me that, so thank you.
I think of myself as a third culture kid because I’m half Iraqi, half Welsh, was born in the UK, moved to the US when I was three.
And so when people ask me where I’m from, I never know how to answer that question because identity is very complex for me.
And moving to the US, I mean, I really remember that time. I was three years old.
The first city that we lived in was Philadelphia. And I remember being three years old, it being summer and me riding a tricycle across a concrete slab outside of our apartment and then eating vanilla ice cream afterwards.
And like that time for all intents and purposes felt really idyllic for me.
And I think it wasn’t until I went to school and then we had some other sort of complex things happen in our family system that I really started to understand my place in the family and place in the world. But those first couple of years were a delight, from what I remember.
[6:17] When you say you started to understand your place in the family and the place in the world, what was it that you came to understand?
[6:24] When I was six years old, my older sister was diagnosed with type one diabetes. And, so actually how she got diabetes is we both got chicken pox. I got chicken pox first, like a great younger sister, I gifted it to her. And then now they understand from a lot of research that so viruses like chicken pox can offset an autoimmune reaction. And for her, that autoimmune reaction was type one diabetes. And both my parents are medical professionals, but this diagnosis really rocked our family system. And it came at the same time that my younger sister was born. So there was just a lot happening in our family. And I was terrified.
Like at first I thought my sister was going to die. She was so sick. She was like passing out and like she was in and out of the hospital before she got this diagnosis. And so at that time, being this little kid, I cemented this idea of, okay, if I start helping out and easing the burden for other people, things will be okay. So I started really unconsciously taking on this caretaker role. So my youngest sister, Jenna, was brand new. And I was like, okay, if I start looking out for her, it’ll ease some of the stress on my mom. If I am a good kid, that’ll also ease some of the pressure on my parents. And it started to shape my role in the family system. And it was really interesting experience that I talk about in the book because it shaped me and set me up for also how I showed up at school and at work and all the places in my life.
[7:53] At a later point, I was going to bring this up, but you spoke on one of your podcasts, this idea about how being a people pleaser, or I’m even thinking this case, you and I have talked about this idea that stability is when you have more resources than demand.
So you became a resource for your family when the demands were high.
And in your podcast, you mentioned that it can be a survival mechanism, but then can you also speak to the idea, maybe you call the collective cultures and codependency?
[8:30] Yeah, yeah. Great questions. Yes. So I definitely leaned into the people pleasing. I definitely thought unconsciously I didn’t know anything about resources at six years old, but I was witnessing.
But as an adult now, I’m like, wow, my mom was really under-resourced.
I love my mom so much, but she was not resourced.
She had five kids, did not have the support that she needed.
She had one navigating chronic illness. There was a lot of other dynamics in the family system, and she just was not resourced for it. So I was like, okay, I got some resources.
Let me jump in and help. And I would help with raising my younger sisters and supporting my parents emotionally.
I was doing a lot of things.
What I’ve come to understand through a lot of therapy, I’ve spent most of my adult life in all kinds of therapy from CBT to EMDR to hypnosis to somatic work, and they’ve all been these beautiful puzzle pieces. But what I realized is one, there was a lot of codependency happening in my family system. So a lot of me deriving self-worth from saving, helping, that kind of thing. And there being people in my family that I felt needed to be saved and helped and just sort of round and round we’d go. And then I sought those relationships elsewhere too.
[9:40] But I’m half Arab and Arab cultures are collective cultures where we commune and we support as a community. And so in my mind, I think codependency and collective culture sit side by side because in collective cultures, there is an allegiance to the elders and we’re told to, you know, defer to our parents and support them in a particular type of way. And sometimes we’re we’re even told to renounce a sense of self to be more in support and deferential to others, which to me really tips into the codependence category.
And so I see the cultural context and how that kind of set me up for some of this codependency as well.
[10:18] And you described to the listeners codependency and how that can show up in relationships and in the workplace.
Yeah, so, I mean, there’s so many beautiful bodies of work around codependency.
Codependent No More is an incredible book. I highly recommend you all read it.
And there’s a much more clinical definition in there.
But when I think of codependency, I think of it simply as when we are in a dysfunctional dynamic in which we are sourcing our worthiness from being in that relationship.
So if I’m sourcing my worthiness from giving and saving, like there’s some dysfunction there, right?
There’s some, I need someone to be needing to be saved for me to feel valued and worthy.
So I’m sourcing my worthiness from that. And so that’s how I think about it.
And I feel like that can happen in so many different dynamics.
And can you describe that in the workplace? Because I would imagine that many of the people that come to you with burnout.
[11:14] Have had experiences of codependency in the workplace? Maybe this is obvious, but if you could just maybe say it out loud as well.
Yeah, and I’m glad that you asked that question. So yeah, I think a lot of us that are navigating burnout can have codependent traits. So we first learn it in the family system that we derive our worthiness from our doing or from saving, and then we show up in the workplace and we do the same thing. I do think that workplace burnout is very complex. I think of it actually as a function of four things. I think it’s a function of our biology. Those of us with hormones like estrogen have a higher propensity for burnout. It is a product of our visible labor, which is the work that we do that is seen and paid for. It’s a product of our invisible labor, which is the work that we do that’s unseen and unpaid for, and that’s the piece that connects the codependency.
And then it is also a product of tolerations, things that we’re tolerating that we need not be tolerating that can also be connected to codependency. So let’s talk about invisible labor and tolerations. So a lot of us that might have codependent traits feel like we have to do more to be worthy, right? So we do more of that invisible labor. It can look like, volunteering to run the ERG. It can look like being what is referred to as the office mom, sort of over-performing, doing things that are outside of your scope, your role that you’re not being paid for, but you feel like makes you a more valuable contributor.
[12:42] And that happens a lot to underrepresented folks like women and people of color because there’s an unspoken hierarchy. We’re often told that a certain archetype is more successful and gets to rise through the ranks. And so we feel like we have to outwork those people to be seen to be worthy. And that’s real and true for me and for a lot of my clients, but we can’t win the system through hard work because the system is broken. And the next thing is tolerations.
That really contributes to burnout too, that’s also connected to codependency. So the things that we’re tolerating in our lives that we need not be tolerating, are we tolerating being under-supported at work? Are we tolerating not being respected? Are we tolerating being underpaid?
Because all of those things are going to exacerbate burnout too, and can also be connected to our codependency because why are we tolerating it to begin with? Right. And I mean, that was the, question I was going to ask, which is how do you help people with the tolerance piece? Because again, that feels so much like a worth wound. You and I spoke maybe independently about not wanting to like the idea of being a burden or being the opposite of a burden would be possibly to show up as what did you call it? The office mom?
CMH Yeah.
[13:56] CMH Yeah. CMH Office mom. I think I’ve heard you describe that before that you bring in lunch for everybody, you bring in extra treats, and it seems like it’s just all from your heart, but that there’s actually there’s often a worth piece in there as well. So we work with people. How do you touch upon.
[14:15] That. How do you make a change in how someone actually feels about their worth?
Yeah. So I love the work of Lise Bourbeau, where she talks about the core wounds and the corresponding masks. And I referenced this in my book. It’s not out yet, but 2025, stay tuned.
So we all, there’s several core wounds from abandonment to rejection, and there’s a whole list and I can share that list with you all in the show notes. And then we wear corresponding masks, depending on those wounds, and that can show up in our lives. So those of us that have this worse wound, we might be over-rotating into overdoing because at our core, we don’t feel worthy, valuable, lovable. And so we want to do some work to really understand that story.
So one of the first things, first exercises I do with all my clients is I actually have them tell me the story of their life in peaks, valleys, and major milestones, because in understanding their story and what’s taken place, knowing their lived experience, and even how they tell their story alludes to where the wounds are for me.
And when we know where the wounds are, we can actually start to do some work on them.
And at the tolerations level, sometimes we kind of reverse engineer it and just start to make a list of like, what are you tolerating?
And then going one by one, why are we tolerating that? And then that will also back us into the wound piece, but everything comes from the wounds, truly.
[15:38] I am skipping all over here. I just saw a message pop up from Eliza Reynolds, and I was going to ask you this.
[15:46] There is a part where you wrote something about wanting to serve from your wholeness and not just the wound. So we’re talking about wounds.
Eliza Reynolds said this on her podcast, which will come out just before this one.
Can you speak to me a little bit about what it’s like for you?
So I’m hearing that a lot of the stuff that’s happening with your clients is that you are touching into the wounds to make changes in worthiness and what they’re willing to step into.
And then for you having done so much of your work already.
[16:20] Can you speak about teaching or leading from wholeness and not necessarily or only the wound?
[16:28] Yeah, and I say this with love because most of us are leading from a place of pain and from the wound versus wholeness because that’s what we’ve been taught. It’s been modeled around us, and there’s no judgment or shame around it, but there will be moments in our lives where it stops serving us, and that’s usually when we get to pivot. And that was my story too. I didn’t feel loved. I did not feel worthy. And I thought that if I was needed, it was close enough to being loved and I was willing to settle for it. And I showed up that way at work. And I was like, listen, if I’m needed, that means I’m valuable. So let me just do all the things and all the stuff. But that was me.
[17:05] Showing up in my ambition from a place of pain. And when we’re coming from a place of pain, we chase all of these things outside of ourselves. We need the accolades. We need the awards.
We need the recognition because the hole inside of us is so big, but nothing outside of us will ever fill that void, right? The work is on the inside. And so that’s when we get to really look inward and say, okay, how can I stop trying to get an external salve for work that really is on the inside? Yeah. And I think it really takes something to shift into that space of wholeness.
So I’ve had a really interesting career in the coaching space and I have coached quite a few people that have been cancelled and this is not an anthropological discussion on cancelled culture, but a lot of the times those people are coming from a place of pain and that moment, that very public moment is an invitation to come from a place of wholeness.
[18:01] What does it look like to come from a place of wholeness? So it looks like let’s get really clear on our wounds.
Let’s get really clear on the masks that we’ve been wearing.
Let’s get really clear on what our true nature is. Like who are we if we’re not performing?
And I have this whole framework around purpose and I believe that it’s evolutionary.
I don’t think it’s a one-stop shop, but I think it’s really about understanding our true nature, what our gifts are, what it is we value, what we want to impact in the world, what brings us joy, and then what our soul needs to actually bring it all to life.
And when we come from that place, that’s a space of full expression versus a performance. So really shifting from performance to purpose. I can imagine the way that a sales page might feel so different if someone’s speaking from a place of purpose, more than needing people to understand how, you know, how worthy they are, how great they are, and also how powerful that work would be.
[19:03] Music.
[19:10] If you’re curious about somatic exploration or nervous system support, you can check out the link below to make a connection call if you’re feeling serious about it or truly curious.
You can do a one-off session and because this work, especially in relationship to the nervous system, is small doable pieces over time, I would consider thinking about a one-month, two-month, or three-month period of time that you might dedicate towards nervous system support. Again, you can start with a smaller step.
[19:52] Music.
[20:02] Gonna mention another moment. I assisted at Kate Northrup’s Mastermind this summer, just meaning I went in to do a somatic piece. And I was so moved by how little performance she was putting on. She was so laid back. There was no sign, right, and the price point for for that mastermind is high as it should be.
But some people might say, oh my gosh, the price point is high and therefore I need to show them how valuable I am.
And it was so beautiful to see her sitting back and just taking it in and trusting in the wisdom of each woman that was there and in the process.
It was incredible. And so this is what I’m imagining that when you’re teaching or coaching from your purpose.
[21:04] And not from a wound, that there’s such a different feel of trust in the room and knowing that there’s a bigger teacher out there.
And when I’m saying a bigger teacher, I’m talking about this great unknown, this consciousness that runs through us, this intelligence that’s, I don’t wanna say here to serve us, but certainly could if we open to it and if we receive.
And so there was this element of receptivity and leaning in for it, to it, that was there.
And so this is, as I’m, I think I’m trying to.
[21:37] Understand it myself as I also move from a life of performance to presence.
So this is why I’m asking you like so many different ways. And then tell me from this angle and tell me from that angle. Gosh, I’m just so happy that you’re doing this. I’m so happy that you’re doing this work that you’ve done it for yourself and that you’re doing it for others.
Likewise. And I would love to hear what you think too. But for me, it’s a moment to moment thing.
[22:01] It’s not like we’re all wound or we’re all wholeness. Like there are times still where where I’m in a space and I’m activated and I notice that I’m over-rotating, I’m over-giving, I’m over-delivering.
What you said about Kate Northrop I think is so beautiful.
That’s a growth edge for me to always be that way because it is still a moment-to-moment choice and something that I’m learning to live into in a bigger and deeper way.
It’s not something that is all the time for me. I’m still a student.
Yeah. I think as long as I’m here on this planet, is going to be a title nature to it. I’m so glad you said that. I did an episode on this idea of a pedestal and anytime that a guest can come on and say or that I can remember to say, yes, this is the thing that I’ve had a lived experience of, it’s possible. And I still meet this place too.
[22:58] I think it’s so helpful and probably refreshing to people listening that there’s not some other person that’s.
Up high in the sky that will take a lifetime to get to, but that it is actually just a lifetime process for, I think, all of us. Yes. And we’re all in service to each other. We’re all teachers for each other. I’m so with you on the pedestal culture. And I think sometimes we put people on pedestals simply so we can knock them off. And so I’m really of the mindset of like, we’re all learning, we’re all students, and we’re all in service to each other. We all have something to, we all know different things and we all have something to share, teach, exchange.
[23:35] I’m thinking, as you were sharing a little bit about your family and we talked about codependency.
[23:43] In that moment I put a pin in this other element when you were talking about communal culture.
And I was thinking about a friend of mine, Boyd Vardy, who’s talked about, well, it’s not, you know, his idea of South Africa of Ubuntu, maybe I’m saying that correctly.
This idea of like, if you’re in trouble, I’m in trouble, right? And I’m reading another book right now about a tribe in South Africa that they have a language that, where they don’t know anybody else’s language and nobody has gone in to be able to learn their language. The man who wrote book has now been there for 30 years. And it’s so clear in certain communities where that would be, a survival tactic that really serves the benefit of the community. And I’m wondering, this is really, I’m not saying this is your specialty and that you should have an answer for this. I’m just wondering into the possibility of a communal culture that’s healthy. What would, that look like? Because in the piece that I listened to, it was mentioned there’s communal culture that’s tied in with patriarchy. Is there a possibility for communal culture that’s healthy?
[25:03] What would it require of us? What would it look like?
[25:08] I think that’s a really great question. And I don’t know the answer to that really, but where it kind of takes me or where my brain goes is thinking about work cultures and not to make everything about work, but sometimes people bring me in to support a healthier work culture. And I think what is really important inside of that, like one of the things that comes up right now is boundaries and establishing our own norms. And so then we get to decide what does respect look like for us? What does trust look like for us? What does healthy communication look like for us. I don’t know that it’s universal. I think it’s an opportunity for us to think about those things inside of our microcosms. I love that. I do actually love that you brought it into work culture because it makes it more digestible than saying like, if we could create a society that’s communally healthy to bring it into a work culture where you can start to make decisions as a group on an individual level, which then becomes relational, maybe even between two people, in my own process where I started getting really curious about the difference between so deeply wanting to feel connected to God, connected to other, connected to myself, and like connection without clarity is enmeshment.
Without clarity is enmeshment. Powerful.
[26:32] At first I was like, oh, connection is everything. If I’m connected, I have love. If I’m connected, I have God. If I’m connected, I have inspiration. Connection is my word. And then I woke up one day and I looked in the mirror and there was this great disappearance that had happened slowly over time.
[26:50] And so I had this inquiry of sovereignty. And what my experience with sovereignty was that the more I claimed what I needed in my boundaries, that it could also, when I’m breaking a pattern of, codependency, it can feel very cold and it can feel isolating. And that kind of feels necessary in the process, the process of boundary repair. But then what does it look like to come together as two somewhat sovereign beings to support one another in each other’s paths.
[27:26] And I am so interested in this, in these like conscious connections, staying connected to self, my own central channel, my own needs, my own desires, without losing my ability to still be empathetic, care for another. It’s a real art.
It really is. As you’re saying this, I’m just thinking that the big question is, like, how do we honor our individual nature, our true nature, and also be in community? Because sometimes it feels like a slippery slope for a lot of us. If I’m in community, then maybe I lose a part of myself. Or if I’m entirely in my true nature, then maybe I’m isolated. So really, where is this in-between space?
How do we do both?
[28:13] The relational health part is something I’m just so interested in right now.
Yeah. So interested in it. I think it’s one of the most challenging parts of earth school for me.
[28:28] Yeah, I think that’s fair. That’s definitely fair. Would you mind talking to us about what I think you have named your big stop.
Is that what you called it? my stop moment. Yeah.
Your stop moment. Yeah. I love that. The big stop. That’s cool though. That feels like a book title.
[28:50] There you go. Book number two. It’s here. Big stop. So we talked earlier about my familial programming and I carried that into the workplace. I was built to support others, right? That’s kind of how I was shaped. And my parents are wonderful people. They were just a dynamic that was happening in the family system that had me show up a particular type of way. And I was a child, and I didn’t know any better. But I carried that forward. And so I was the caretaker everywhere that I went. We talked a little earlier about the office mom. People at work used to call me Momina because I would mom everybody. Yeah. So literally leading into the invisible labor, overgiving, over nurturing, putting everybody before myself, and everybody called me Momina.
And so I had started my career in marketing, and I worked in corporate America. But.
[29:39] Quickly realized I wanted to be in entrepreneurship and I wanted to support female entrepreneurs. And so I co-founded a marketing agency with someone that I’d gone to school with. And I took all of my caretaking, lack of boundaries, codependency, martyrdom, all of it into the workplace. And I started to get really sick. So this went on for years.
And the seventh year, my hair was falling out. I used to have so much hair. My hair was falling out, I was having trouble remembering things. I had like seven notebooks, like just taking notes on everything because I couldn’t remember something. And I was in my late 20s, like this should not have been happening. And eventually I decided to go to the doctor. And so I went to seven different doctors before one would really take me seriously. And I’m honestly surprised that I even had the tenacity to do that because I was so flippant about my health at that point and sort of divorced from my body and very much in my head.
But anyway, something inside of me told me to keep going, keep looking.
[30:41] And then one day I was on my way to see a client and I got a call from my doctor and she told me that if I didn’t go to the hospital instead of going to work, I was days away from multiple organ failure. So essentially I had two undiagnosed autoimmune conditions and because I hadn’t been taking care of myself, I was at a place where it was a crossroads. It was truly like, do you keep going the way that you’ve been going and probably not be here or do you choose to live another way?
And I think for me, it had to be that extreme because there’d been little messages along the way and I hadn’t stopped to listen.
And so I needed a big old huge stake in the ground for me to really hear and just to decide and to choose something different.
And when people ask me about this moment, they’ll ask about the feeling of the moment, but I think that I was still so divorced from my body, the feeling wasn’t even there.
I didn’t even really feel scared because I was like, is this real?
I was just so used to kind of keep moving forward.
So even like when I think back at it, like I wasn’t even embodied around the diagnosis and around this like really intense moment because I was so in my head.
What I hear is momentum.
[31:55] We really use momentum as a way not to feel and which is also why it can be so scary to feel, to slow down.
Because when we slow down, we start to feel all the things we couldn’t feel when we were going fast.
So even if a doctor says a thing, if you’re still, you’re driving to work, and then there’s even an emergency of the organs, right? Emergency is still up here.
Driving is up in a higher range of speed.
Then of course, it’s not gonna land. Like there’s enough of like, okay, I have to make a difference, but it’s not gonna land right away for you to feel it.
Yeah. That makes so much sense. Such a beautiful way to put it, the momentum.
And I think it took me years to really feel like it was safe enough to feel.
Yeah, I’m wanting the listeners to hear that and the permission of that.
It took me years to feel that it was safe enough to feel.
And oftentimes we don’t know that we’re not feeling because the whole point of being numb or disassociated is that we don’t even have an idea, kind of like an ingrained habit that there’s no awareness about the ingrained habit.
[33:04] Music.
[33:12] If you are feeling depleted today, or even if you’re feeling well, I want to offer you my free program called 21 Days of Untapped Support. What this means is that you’re tapping into resources that are all around you, possibly within you, that could help shift the equation of stability means more resources than demand. So some resources we look for depend on our financial state. If I have more money I could afford a babysitter.
If I have more money I could afford better health insurance. I could afford to go to the retreat. I could afford to take that program. And it becomes very dependent. 21 days of untapped support begins to look at what resources are, are already there, already in front of me, around me, inside of me, that I can tap into.
I’ve put this program together as small doable pieces of nervous system support.
[34:19] I’ve also taken it myself. When I first launched it, I took it myself and each day I thought, man, this is an awesome reminder and so useful today. And I would even say as you take it, if it’s serving you, you could do it on repeat.
Because again, it’s free and it’s digestible and it’s highly useful.
So check out the show notes at the bottom and go ahead and sign up if it feels like it’s calling to you in any way.
[34:50] Music.
[34:59] But you did make a change. Would you mind telling us a bit about that?
Yeah. So I changed everything. I’m a Scorpio, so like intensity is my jam.
So when I was like, oh, I got to change my life, I will do this intensely.
So at that time, I had just started life coaching. I wasn’t coaching people yet.
I was on the receiving end of coaching, and it was really helpful to kind of have this mirror back of my behaviors and patterning and all these things.
I had also started to go to therapy. I was just in the practice of self-awareness, which was so helpful because I could not see my stuff. And then I realized that I had built this business, but I had not built it for myself because I didn’t know who I was. So then it felt like it was time to really transition out. And so I sold my half of the business to my business partner.
And I, for a while, went back to corporate America because I wanted solid ground. And and entrepreneurship was just a little bit too destabilizing for me at the time when my body was destabilized.
So I needed like some consistency.
And then while I was there, I started to just follow curiosity.
And I was very curious about nutrition because I had been diagnosed with celiac disease and I had to change the way that I was eating.
[36:14] And so then I went to nutrition school. And then I was very curious about mindfulness because I had been using it in therapy.
And so then I went to study mindfulness. And then I was very curious about coaching because it had helped me so much. Then I went to study coaching and I was just kind of collecting these tools, not knowing what I was gonna do with them.
And eventually was able to kind of put them all together and really create something that I needed at these kind of pivot points and stop moments. But it was really a very circuitous, it was not linear at all.
At the time, I remember feeling somewhat Like people were really judging me being like, what is she doing?
None of this makes sense. Is this a waste? Like all of those talk tracks were absolutely in my head, but there was just this inner pull to follow the curiosity, to explore and to go towards like what felt warm, what felt like joy.
And so I gave myself permission for the first time in my life to do that.
[37:09] And it was a really good idea.
I wanna highlight two things. one is the possibility that we can create the same life that we disappear into. So we can be the creators of the life that we disappear into. So for me, for you, you spoke about you built a a business. You built a business, you built a structure, and then…
[37:41] It would, but it was with patterns that didn’t serve you. It was with old patterns. And so there was a destruction of self within the same thing that you were creating. For myself, it would have been within like my role of mother within a family of like, I know I helped create this family where we’re choosing to live all the things. And so how have I disappeared if I was part of the creation of it. So just the possibility and I think the likeliness that oftentimes when we lose ourselves in life, we were also part of the creation and that perhaps that creation came from wounds. Even if we’ve done years of healing, it’s part of the cycle.
Oh my gosh. Can you say that again? That was so beautiful.
Even if we’ve done years of healing, it’s part of the cycle. So there’s a good chance that we will do it again. Episode two is the cycle of awareness and our many musings and it’s It’s both hopeful, but it’s also like, oh, we’re gonna do this for a lifetime.
We’re gonna evolve our state of norm, but then go back into chaos and confusion with patterns that no longer serve us, go into a fertile void.
[38:50] Come out with inspiration and new ideas and have a new evolved norm.
The other part I wanna highlight because Tracy Levy, who will be on later.
[39:01] Went through a separation with her partner, and it sent her spiraling. And she’s been an entrepreneur for a very long time. And an opportunity came up for her to be a school.
[39:12] Teacher. Because in her much, much earlier career, she has a degree from Columbia for this thing, this very thing. And her partner, who she was separating from anyway, was like, that’s not you.
You. That’s not you. That’s not you’re an entrepreneur that you won’t. And you and I have talked quite a bit about this idea of pausing, tuning into like, what do I need now? And just that permission of what do I need now? That that answer is going to change depending on how stable or unstable our life is or what phase we’re in.
So I’m highlighting that for anyone listening who thinks that like the ultimate goal is entrepreneurship that sometimes having the stable job gives us the space and time to what I’m hearing is that gave you the space and time to then study nutrition, to study coaching, to study mindfulness in a way that I would think would be less stressful because you’re not also being like, and then I need to make a career of it. It’s like, I’m curious about this and have this other thing that’s stable. And so I’m kind of just like cheering you on over here and and wanting the listeners to maybe also hear that there can be steps, even when it’s radical of leaving something you created, which I know it’s gotta be so hard.
[40:33] I heard you use the word divorce in that too. So I’m also so interested about this word, you know, going through a divorce of the company that you created, but also the wisdom that was with you all along the wisdom to change the wisdom to reach out to the doctor, the wisdom, you know, Even when you had that movement that was constant, that you had a wisdom that stuck with you, a wisdom to get a stable nine to five for a while as you also let yourself have curiosity.
[41:05] I think what you’re underscoring is so important that it is not linear and we give ourselves permission to change our minds to evolve because we always need different things. And I feel like this is the thesis of my life. If I can show that to other people of like, it is totally cool and great and wonderful to change all the time. I think we live in a world that is like, oh, you’re this way, stay this way. But it’s not the truth. We’re evolutionary beings. And I want everyone to feel like they have permission to constantly ask themselves, like you said so beautifully, what do I need now? Because it’s always going to be different. And every next level of becoming in our careers, in our lives require different inputs. And to use your language, that nine to five job, it gave me more resources than demands. And so then I had resources energetically and monetarily to invest in these other programs that I wouldn’t have been able to do if I was in entrepreneurship. And yeah, those choices changed my life.
And the intuition piece is so important because there was literally a voice that told me like, you need to leave this business. I know you’ve built it, but you need to leave. And I was like, well, I got to listen. Clearly, it hasn’t been working so well for me, so I’ve got to tune in.
And I didn’t know where the corporate job was going to go or what was after it. And so many people were asking me, people were saying, you’re an entrepreneur. What are you doing? What’s next?
And I was like, I really don’t know. And I’m cool not knowing. Are you cool not knowing?
[42:32] Because a lot of the times people are kind of putting their stuff on us and just coming back to ourselves and asking ourselves, what do we need now? Oh, so good. So So juicy. Mm.
[42:45] I’m like wanting to do these cartwheels over here with excitement the fact that you could say, I’m okay not knowing are you okay not knowing like just to take that projection and like give it back, to the person but also, There are very few of us and you might also say that maybe this is a title feeling for you but to Be okay with, Not knowing Is a pretty big deal I’m not sure I’m there yet.
Sometimes I am. A lot of times I am, actually. A lot of times I’m like, I don’t know why I just have to take this course.
I don’t know why, but this is the next thing. But there are also other times in life where I’m like, oh my God, I would really love to know what’s next.
Like if I just feel like I’m in this liminal space and so beautiful that you could claim your process and give yourself space and support.
Oh my god, I just have to jump in one more time and say, with all my clients I worked with in New York, I worked with a lot of people with chronic pain and injuries that they didn’t think could get any better.
And my theory was that if you give any part of our multidimensional being the amount of space and support it needs, that miracles can happen.
And thinking about a joint or thinking about the nerves or thinking about boundaries.
[44:13] But you gave yourself space and support within your work life too, which is a really beautiful thing, very courageous.
Thank you. And going back to your point of like, there are times when I’m really comfortable not knowing but like we’re always a student. There are times that I’m absolutely not comfortable not knowing.
So it’s like the smaller things, cool, like, oh, I don’t know why I need to take this course, but I’m going to sign up.
But especially now, and I don’t know if you feel this way, I feel very squarely in my dharma in this business.
And so when things don’t work out, sometimes it feels a little existential crisis-y because it’s like, wait, I thought this is my true nature.
I thought this is the way that I’m supposed to be serving. Why isn’t this thing working?
And those parts can feel really challenging.
So just kind of, again, offering to everybody, O is becoming, O is a student, O is learning.
And certain places we can really show up and be in the purpose, and certain places we’re still in performance in certain places we’re okay not knowing and other places we’re not.
Right. And I’m hearing you say in certain places you’re in your wholeness, but the business might not reflect it yet. And that ability to stay in what I’ve heard called the tension field, right? The ability to stay in the tension field until whatever alchemy needs to happen happens is just a huge capacity and skill.
[45:35] A very simple thing for a listener is like when my daughter, like, mom, I want this dessert. And I’ve set a boundary, say she’s already had one that day.
And if she keeps going, eventually she knows like, oh, mom sticks to her boundaries. I can trust this. I don’t have to reel over it. But there’s always that part of me that’s like, like inner, like I could just, I could just give it to her. And like, oh man, staying with this level of a child being upset at me and angry. And But if I can hold the tension field with some stability and calmness, it transmutes and then she becomes stable again.
And then she just moves on with the day and her system is more equalized because we both kept a boundary and did something that was in alignment with her physiological needs at that time.
That’s a really simple version of holding a tension field. and a bigger one might be being in your purpose and the universe isn’t showing up in the way that you thought that it might if you did your purposeful work.
To be able to stay in that field is massive.
I’m so grateful that you have a podcast because I just love hearing you speak about these things.
[46:49] Oh, well, I appreciate you and I appreciate you coming on and maybe I’ll close out with one question, about the title of your book, The Ambition Trap.
[47:07] My husband has a t-shirt that says, ambition is my fuel and I get great mileage.
This is gonna connect a little bit back to the question about is there healthy communal ways of being.
Is there healthy ambition? Can you, like, when is it a trap and when is there health?
Yeah, it’s a beautiful question. So there’s a couple of layers to it.
So I think of ambition, there is absolutely healthy ambition when we’re coming from that place of wholeness versus when we’re coming from a place of pain.
The other layer in the ambition trap is I’m speaking to underrepresented folks, like women, people of color, those with disabilities, because our relationship to ambition is very different because we’re told to take up space, then we take up too much of it.
We’re dinged for it because leadership and ambition, and there are so many studies that actually underscore this, are words that we associate with a very particular archetype and it’s not underrepresented people.
And so what does it look like for us to be historically excluded, but then take up space and do it in a way where we’re coming from a place of wholeness?
I believe that it exists, and I wanna be alongside everybody as we really transition into this.
We can do it, I’m gonna stand for it.
And I think this is the most, some of the most important work in the world right now.
And I’m so happy that you’re leading the way.
Thank you so much. Thank you, my friend. Thank you for having me.
What a beautiful conversation. Mmm. Thank you.
[48:35] Music.
[48:47] Thank you for tuning in. It’s been such a pleasure. If you’re looking for added support, I’m offering a program that’s totally free called 21 Days of Untapped Support. It’s pretty awesome.
It’s very easy. It’s very helpful. You can find it at sarahtacy.com. And if you love this episode, please subscribe and like. Apparently it’s wildly useful. So we could just explore what happens When you scroll down to the bottom, subscribe, rate, maybe say a thing or two.
If you’re not feeling it, don’t do it. It’s totally fine. I look forward to gathering with you again. Thank you so much.
[49:27] Music.
Welcome, dear ones. For this episode, I spoke with my beloved friend Tracy Levy while she was in the middle of a dark night of the soul.
Tracy is a teacher, a writer, and a guide. She shares personal experiences of finding grounding and support in the aftermath of a heartbreaking, unexpected divorce.
Together, we explore the ways that we abandon ourselves to make things work, as well as ways of finding joy in unexpected career changes and the process of self-discovery.
Tune in to hear more about:
Welcome, friends. Today on the podcast, I’m joined by the incredible Cait Scudder.
Cait is a renowned coach, speaker, entrepreneur and homesteading mother. Her podcast The Millionaire Mother is a resource and a space for entrepreneurial mothers to share what goes on behind the scenes as our family constellations change and business values evolve.
In this conversation, Cait shares the importance of embracing the mystery and transformation that comes with taking wild leaps in the direction of our intuition. And together we unpack the archetype of the Millionaire Mother through the threshold of birth and receiving support.
Join us to learn about:
Hello, dear ones! Today we’re talking with Elena Brower, a woman who has profoundly impacted my life due to the integrity with which she lives her own.
Elena is a mother, mentor, artist, teacher, bestselling author and host of the Practice You podcast. Her first poetry collection, Softening Time, comes out today!! Please do yourself a favor and grab a copy or two!
Together, we discuss the powerful nature of weaving self-care into our daily lives, respecting and honoring our children, choosing solid partners, end of life reflections, and love. Join us.
Join us to learn about:
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