055 – Kirsten Beverley-Waters: Getting Curious About the Boxes We’re In

Sarah Tacy 0:05
Hello, welcome. I’m Sarah Tacy. And this is threshold moments, the podcast where guests and I share stories about the process of updating into truer versions of ourselves. The path is unknown, and the pull feels real. Together we share our grief, laughter, love, and life saving tools. Join us

Sarah Tacy 0:37
Hello, welcome to threshold moments today you’ll be listening to a conversation with Kirsten Beverley-Waters, this conversation is going to sound slightly different because after I interviewed them, I still had burning questions. And I asked them if they would be willing to come back on the podcast.

Sarah Tacy 1:44
There’s a part where Kirsten just says I’m in a box. What is this box? Do I want to be in this box? So before I even say like I gotta get out of here. It’s just just noticing and getting curious. And

Sarah Tacy 2:29
So today, I hope you enjoy as much as I did and do enjoy listening to Kirsten Beverley-Waters as they share their expertise on life, athletics, working through hard things and questioning

Sarah Tacy 2:49
how we became and become who we are and who are wanting to become thank you so much.

Sarah Tacy 3:06
Welcome to threshold moments today we have with us Kirsten Beverley-Waters and I’m going to start with the official bio Kirsten Beverley-Waters is the author of struggle guru, a yoga medicine teacher, a multi sport athletic coach and a world record holder. No big deal for the most consecutive ultra runs. As an LGBTQIA+ yoga teacher. They offer students a safe space to explore, express and experience their queer bodies in practice.

Sarah Tacy 3:47
Through their experiences with cancer, mental health and grief. Kirsten helps others transform moments that grab hold of them the hardest and transform them into personal growth practices.

Sarah Tacy 4:02
Kirsten has created mental health and mindfulness training programs for athletes and continues their work one on one with cancer and chronic pain patients

Sarah Tacy 4:13
when they are not teaching or coaching Kirsten speaks on the human condition and how our biographies transform our biology.

Sarah Tacy 4:24
Welcome. Thanks for being here. Yeah. I sometimes start a podcast off by saying how we met or how we know each other. And in this case, we don’t know each other very well. hardly at all. What I do know is that over the last year or a year and a half since starting the podcast, whenever I go through your Instagram page or it shows up on my feed, I am often just me moved by what I sense to be a great deal of love, and vibrancy, and care, and depth, and discipline, and precision. And so what I do is when I see someone who I think this person could be really amazing to share their story, I take a little screenshot on my phone. And I think I now have a few screenshots of your Instagram page on my phone. And finally, I was like, Hey, would you be willing to come on? And so I appreciate you coming on. And I look forward to getting to know you. Well,

Kirsten Beverley-Waters 5:42
I think it’s funny that in this day and age, like being able to go on social media, and we do we connect with so many different people that we feel like we know, and then we like, we play it back. I’m like, actually, no, I’ve never actually met you in person. But I feel like we cut off because I feel like you shared something very vulnerable or personal. That connects me to you in some capacities. And so

Sarah Tacy 6:06
a line that I highlighted, there were many of them. But that I highlighted at the end here is our biographies, transform our biology. And I think this is more what the podcast was about. That our biography is often when we really face them, help to transform the path we go on and what we choose to share with the world. And I’m wondering if there’s any part of your biography, maybe starting like further back on the timeline, and then we’ll move closer to present day in time. That has had a significant impact on making you who you are today.

Kirsten Beverley-Waters 6:53
I think a lot of times I’ve pointed to losing my father at six years old is it was very traumatic is the fourth of July. I remember watching fireworks off of our roof falling asleep watching Jaws, which is kind of hilarious being like six years old watching Jaws, right like nothing like a soothing movie on the Fourth of July to go to this go to sleep to someone children gather around as the great wife eats the boat that would rush my children sleep, like three years. Yeah. Right? Well, my dad, we we spent a lot of time in the water. And my dad often pretended to be Jaws like, like, try and pull you underwater. So I mean, there’s lots of things there, nothing abnormal in that. But I remember falling asleep to that next to my father. And the next thing I remember was waking up to my mom screaming and panicking and trying to perform CPR on my father. And watching my aunts come to gather us like she came as the paramedics came and watching them take him away and then have never coming back. And that being such a space of disbelief, because my father for sure as a child was someone I idolized. He was incredibly athletic, he would get up every morning and he’d go for a run, he’d play tennis, he loved basketball. I mean, there wasn’t a sport or an activity that he didn’t love. And he also had a great love for my mom, and he was a hopeless romantic. And so there was just so much there, that in losing him.

Kirsten Beverley-Waters 8:27
I think I lost myself. And not in the sense of like, trying to hide myself but trying to conform to be what I always imagined he would want me to be. And so it took me down a path of okay, my father was a runner, I should be a runner. And that’s what I’m going to do. But maybe I don’t like running, I don’t know. But I know that he would be proud because he was a runner or he was really good at math and science. So I would be really good at math and science boiler. I was terrible at math. I was actually quite good at at English and multimedia production and video production and theater was like such a different path. But I held onto that path in a lot of ways unconsciously throughout my life. And it took a lot of unlearning that part of me that path for me that I think is most significant was his his death was significant. But it was the loss of exploration of myself. That happened that day that was most traumatic, not the loss of my father, because he lived a wonderful and brilliant life, though it being cut short. And I know for sure he wouldn’t want me to cut my own life short and that’s what I was doing in that moment. So that’s why it feels most impactful going back if I had to pick the moment.

Sarah Tacy 9:57
You also mentioned right before you gave that story. And I don’t want to pass over it because I hear how obviously big that is. I gather that you do a lot of self exploration. And before we got on for the call, there was a moment where we were testing out mics. And you said, Oh, it’s interesting, because generally people hear me before they see me. And you didn’t mean generally, people hear me on a podcast before they see me on a video, I believe you meant like they would, if we were in the same area, they would hear me before they would see my body. And that was talking to your ability to project. And that when you were younger, there was a time where you lost your voice. And I wanted to go back and visit that because I imagine, like in many people’s own ways, and sometimes it’s more symbolic than something that can be pinpoint. We have times where we lose our voice. And the path back to finding our truth or finding our voice or being able to stand up for something or say something loudly, or take up space can be quite a journey, or it can seem impossible. And so I was interested in hearing your story about your voice.

Kirsten Beverley-Waters 11:21
Yeah. So when I was three years old, I had an abscess lymph glands. So I was playing with the neighbor. And he came running into Tom and vomit that I had swallowed a grape and then it was stuck on the side of my neck. And my mom said, Well, that’s weird, because I didn’t give you grapes for snacks. I’m not really sure how that is. And my mom’s like, yeah, that definitely does not look right, it did look like I had a great just stuck to and it came out of nowhere. So my mom took me into the emergency room because she was concerned about it. And they told her that I had an abscess lymph gland, and that they needed to do surgery immediately. Because if it were to rupture, like getting in the lymph nodes, and like in that can make me very sick. During that surgery, the surgeon nicked my vocal cords, because they got so close into it. So this scratch to the vocal cords. It impaired my speech and made things very difficult. I struggled a lot with various words. So I had to work with a speech pathologist went to speech therapy. And I mean, as a kid, you it’s already hard, you’re learning new words, but also learning like there are certain words that you knew going into a room, like before my surgery, and then coming out of that surgery, I couldn’t say or I’d struggle would be very painful to say, I feel that took a long time. And in a lot of ways has been, as you pointed out, like we talked about losing our voice and metaphorically. I don’t think that there’s anything scarier in our lives than feeling unseen or unheard, right like to feel invisible, doesn’t matter how in our lives. And to not be able to say something to not be able to speak up to not be able to articulate something that you want, feels paralyzing. And as I progressed through my life, it has served as a metaphor in different ways, whether it’s coming out in the queer community coming out as non binary, that I have platforms, while small, but still impactful as a yoga teacher, as a public speaker, as a coach, where I can use my voice. And when I don’t, I’m not honoring the three year old who sat in all of those sessions and work so hard to be able to speak and articulate in a way that people could hear and connect with. Taking that time as a kid, struggling to be able to talk struggling, be able to have the words. And now to be able to be an adult and have that be one of my strengths is something I’m proud of. And I don’t take for granted, because living in the United States, we do technically have free speech. And I don’t feel like we use it enough because we’re so afraid of what others will think. And I often think like can my voice can? What I have to say, help one person in a way that I needed when I was younger? And if the answer is yes, then I want to take this step forward, as scary as it can be, especially when we live in a world where it’s like you’re so afraid to say the wrong thing or be canceled. And that’s where I’m like, this is where grace and compassion come into it. We all have space to grow and learn. But I’m grateful in a lot of ways that I had that experience because now it’s helped me use my voice with such clarity. Wow. I mean, I’m obviously fascinated like humans in general. Yeah.

Sarah Tacy 14:43
I love to hear how something that happened when you were young. That was so that sounds so challenging, was preparing you in many ways to be who you are meant to be. And it’s really amazing to be able to see the other side and I think on this as podcasts, I never want to promise like the other side. But it has been actually really helpful to me over and over, especially the last few podcasts when I’m listening to people’s journeys. And sometimes it’s like 20 years of the unknown. And sometimes it’s seven years of really hard times, and the message keeps coming out. To keep going to keep taking that next step. Actually, what is your motto, the only pays this forward? Yeah, that seems to be the message when you only pay this forward. And we can pause like, we can still take a pause, but the only pace is Ford, you wrote a book called struggle guru. And you run ultra marathons. And I don’t know if these two are connected. But I’m wondering if you could share with the audience anything, either that you take from the struggle, or why that would be, what the book is centered on, and what role it plays in your life.

Kirsten Beverley-Waters 16:02
I had this concept of struggle guru, but I remember having a conversation with my wife, where it was like, what is it that I’m really good at. And I’m like, people love to come to me with their struggles. And like, sometimes I feel like the only thing that people want to talk to me about is like struggles and when things get better than it’s well by I’ll be back when there’s another struggle. So it was kind of tongue in cheek of like, I feel like people think I’m a struggle guru. And at the same time, it made me dig a little deeper into the fact that I believe our greatest mentor, our teacher, and yes, Guru, which is a word I do not use lightly, because I have great reverence for its history and its significance. So I want to be clear that I am no one’s guru. Ever, do I see myself as anyone’s guru, but I do believe because struggle has a powerful and profound impact in our lives, that it can be your guru, if you show up to it and see it as your ally, instead of your adversary. And that’s where struggle guru really starts is taking a look at our struggle, understanding that it’s not there to oppose us, but to encourage us to ask us hard questions that maybe we don’t know how to ask, or we’re afraid to be honest with. And through that understanding of struggle, we can start to unravel our own stories, and change our biography. So in turn, we can also change our biology. You know, we have athletes who are the same age, and we’ll say, one will say like, I’m so old, and I’m not capable of doing this, and I can’t do this, I can’t do this. And I watched them manifest that. And I’m that same age athlete on the other side, it was like, I feel so powerful, and I’m strong, and like, age is just a number and I watched them thrive. And so each story is influencing that. And both of them are looking at struggle as different teachers, one sees them as the one that is the force that’s pushing against them, which is okay. Anybody who has ever lifted a heavyweight in their life knows that we need resistance in order to grow. But some people carry that so heavily that they let it crush them. So that’s where struggle guru takes people on a journey of self inquiry to what is your biography? And how is struggle playing a role? And how can you change that, to live a better life to live more authentically, as yourself?

Sarah Tacy 18:44
We all have fight or flight outlets that are needed on a daily basis. And I wonder, with people who do long distance, if there’s a certain amount of that fight or flight that gets out that is actually really like regulating to get to neutral for the pain that one might feel for a significant loss in their life or a significant trauma in life. Do you have any thoughts on either what you’ve seen or what you felt in yourself? Yes,

Kirsten Beverley-Waters 19:14
so many thoughts, distilling them down to something useful, or at least coherent. I mean, and I’ve had conversations with so many runners who’ve come to running because of either addiction, trauma, or just a great deal of stress in their life that they’re not sure how to alleviate they’ve tried different methods to to help in that. And some of that may be meditation, yoga, weightlifting, alcohol, binge watching sugar, any number of things, right. But there’s something about running I think, I think the reason running resonates with so many communities of people who are are struggling, is that it is full body. You can’t Let’s just be like, Well, I’m not gonna think about my arms or my breath, because they’re unnecessary, where I could be on a stationary bike, right, and it’s mostly legs, and I can sit up and not use my arms and like, drink whatever I want. And I could also watch on a screen something on a stationary bike. Running requires all of our senses. And so I’m going to shift a little to speak to my me personally, through traumas, through anxiety, through mental health, through illness, through loss. Running provides me a space to feel very grounded and real about what real pain and discomfort can feel like in the moment, but also remembering that I can choose to walk so I can go from run to walk, I will breathe heavy, but I’ll also have moments of flow and everything feels free and wonderful. I’ll have great moments of clarity and also kind of be like the squirrel that’s sitting off in the tree, like just bouncing every direction. And so each time I go out there, there’s just a different piece of me that I experience. And by being out there and experiencing those different parts, I feel like I am better able to apply that in my day to day life. So I think that’s part of the draw for people in it. And people talking about the endorphins and how you feel, which is kind of funny, because my mother, I distinctly remember her saying after a high school race, what is fun about running before you run, you look like you’re gonna throw up during the race, you do throw up after the race, you still look like you’re gonna throw up again, where’s the fun. And I think that the fun is, in running it as a very set. Goal. I start here, I end there. And so also people getting into running where life feels very chaotic. There’s a start and there’s an end. It gives us a sense of control around something where we can start to flex how much discomfort and pain we want to feel, and how far we want to stretch it. Which is why people start to stretch the distance. They’re like, okay, I can endure more. And each time I add another layer or Mio, I feel like I can endure more in my life. And that’s why you’re starting to see more people do marathons and ultra marathons is because it creates that layering of enduring, which is what we need to do in our lives.

Sarah Tacy 22:17
Do you find that there is a translation? I’m wondering, we talked earlier about how, in yoga, there’s a translation often, especially at the beginning, but when you get deeper into a pose, it doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re going to continue to get deeper into layers of yourself, and that you could actually get more into ego. And I’m, you could speak for yourself. But again, I know you coach a lot of people, and Does it still make it over into day to day life? That like, oh, I can endure a longer distance, and therefore I can endure more when I’m not running.

Kirsten Beverley-Waters 22:58
I think that it depends on how willing any individual is to look inward. Because I used to think that I had to keep going further and further to understand how to endure, I always set an intention for my run, what is it that I am looking for in the run, and I don’t think that everybody does that. A lot of times the intention is, I want to get faster, I want to PR, I want to beat this record that’s in this area, I want to win a race. And what starts out for a lot of people is very introspective work to grow and heal starts to funnel some people down the path of like, now I feel seen people recognize that I’m doing this now people recognize that I’m getting this accomplishment. And it’s that’s where the ego starts to take over in the running portion of I need more medals, I need better accolades. You know, doing one 100 mile race isn’t enough, I need to do five I need to do 200 mile races I need to run across the country to prove to prove to whom and for what. And that is always the question like that. I’m asking myself,

Sarah Tacy 24:04
of my one of my earliest yoga teachers used to yell. Are you doing this out of love? Are you doing this to prove something to somebody? And it was so great, because I was a college athlete, and I was in classes, often with people much older than me. And I’m like, Oh, I don’t want to be the first person out of down dog. I don’t want to be the first person out of where you’re to. And so with that question, now there are going to be days where I can really lean into the idea of tapas and letting it burn in that my mind is stronger than my body. And so there are days where I’m like, Oh, I can push this edge because out of love. I’m curious what else there? There are other days before a teacher asked me like, Oh, if you want to come out or here. There are other days that if it’s out of love, you know, I’m, I’m doing something else. I’m choosing another so that one question so often has helped me and getting in real time getting into practice. Am I doing this out of love or am I doing this to prove something? When I listen into your 14 Minute live that you did after your 100 mile marathon. It sounded like there was so much self liberation in it. You were speaking about how you’re finally doing this race for yourself. And as I was listening, I was thinking I could never do what they do. I could never run that race. And I still might not choose to run 100 mile race. I was like, right there, right there. I could I can I can link on to that similarity.

Kirsten Beverley-Waters 25:34
Ah, yeah. Well, I mean, first of all, yes, you could do 100 miles, you are right in saying you might not choose to write. But you could. There was an article that was written this summer that said, the 200 mile is the new 100. So is the 300 mile the new 200. And I am careful sometimes in sharing my stories of distances that I choose to seek out for my own reasons, sometimes athletic, sometimes just a deeply personal and cleansing and spiritual fact, most of them at this point in my life are about challenging a view of myself, and being able to show up and see what happens in that moment. Because I will get flooded with letters or messages from people who say, Oh, my God, I’ve never done anything over 5k Like now I need to do 100 mile like to be able to, like have this like self liberation. And I’m like, no, no, like, please understand, the distance does not matter. The intention around any activity or event that you create for yourself is powerful. This is specific to me. And that by acquiring more miles, you don’t earn a certain level of enlightenment. That’s not how it works. Because I feel like there’s so there’s so much out there that says, like, more is better, faster, more, faster, more and more, more, more, more like hustle, grind, hustle, grind, and then we lose this capacity to find ourselves. And that’s what movement for me at this at this juncture in my life is really about movement is about connecting to my deepest self. And the 100 Miles was the most powerful run that I have done for for many reasons. Because the first thing is I it was the first time I felt like I was towing a line of a race of this magnitude where I was uncertain whether I could finish as myself. And to have my mom who has never seen me complete any altra distance as an adult. She I mean, don’t get me wrong. She never missed a cross country track meet when I was in high school. But she has not seen this. And she had initially said like, oh yeah, I’ll show up at one spot which mind you she lives within like 15 miles of any part of the course so she could show up at any time. She got so hooked after the first part seemed new, which the first time she saw me, I had just slid down a huge mud hill that was full of horse manure, oh, I could not smell worse, which was probably worse. I’m like, get this off of me like I can’t run another 80 miles in horse manure, need to change. So I was changing. She just couldn’t believe it. And she stayed up all night. She was sending me text messages through the night and was at the finish line. And that was such a powerful moment to have her there to see what I’ve done as an adult. And not for the athletic feat, but just the resilience and the fortitude and the persistence to keep showing up and not put that race felt like I kept showing up in the struggle while there was a monsoon. And I do mean monsoon they had to reroute part of the course because the river was too high. More than eight hours of just non stop torrential downpour, which is why I was changing the clothes so much because of getting such terrible chafing in my bra line and it hurt. And I just remember looking at this woman like I see you have small children, I’m so sorry. But they’re about to see all kinds of things. And the lady was like, Don’t worry, they just saw their dad pull their pants down. Don’t think anything will be more scarring. You know? So I was just like switching switching through those clothes and not being able to get any fluid or food down starting at mile 20 Miles 50 to 70 It’s projectile vomiting and oh my gosh. Yeah, the first time I could eat anything was at mile 87. And it was a quarter of a grilled cheese sandwich which is crazy because I am lactose intolerant and I cannot eat gluten. So the fact that I’m blue dairy object. And like I was like we You born was kind of amazing in there. Did you

Sarah Tacy 30:05
not eat? Because you were running so hard that you just couldn’t take it down? Or was there no source of food like nobody to bring you food?

Kirsten Beverley-Waters 30:14
No, there was plenty of food. I mean, like, so much food to access, my body was rejecting it. Like, my body just wasn’t having it, which honestly, happened to me in the first 10 days of my world record attempt as well, I couldn’t get food down. So the good thing was that I was familiar with what that would feel like and how to navigate it. I want to also remind people, please seek medical attention in these times, don’t push in these be safe people. But my wife is a physician, and she is my like, Lead Crew person out there. So you know, and I to nurses who are also on my PC group. So there are people there, medically who can can help me and there medics there as well. But yeah, so the food wasn’t able to go to my body just it wasn’t having it. So I was I mean, by the time I finished the race, I had lost it. I was out there for 28 hours, and I had lost close to 16 pounds. What? Yeah, yeah, that’s how much

Sarah Tacy 31:21
clearly I don’t I don’t follow this world, because I didn’t know that was humanly possible. Yeah, I’ve never heard of that. Well,

Kirsten Beverley-Waters 31:30
it’s a lot. That’s a lot. It is. I mean, and that’s what happens when you can’t take anything in. And I mean, that is truly border, like is dangerous. It was dangerous. And my wife and I, when we finished, like taking care of the fluids, taking care of me from like, a medical standpoint to ensure that I could get things into my body. Because that could become very dangerous. Even more dangerous than it sounds. Yeah. Please don’t try. And though I did have somebody sent me a message when I shared that and I’m like, Oh, my gosh, that’s amazing. So if I run longer, I could lose more weight. And I’m like, this is not the message that

Sarah Tacy 32:05
is not the message. That the message Yeah, like. So one thing that comes to mind a few minutes ago, you were speaking about more miles, doesn’t make more self liberation. And it made me think about, again, when I was more deeply embedded into the yoga world, at the beginning, I feel like ever so much is self awakening. And then getting deeper and deeper into poses can sometimes really feed the ego. And I’m not saying that it makes it worse. But it but as you were saying it’s the intention throughout it all. And at some point, during my practice, I just started really scaling back like, our imbalances are great, all the things are great. And so I’m not turning anything against any. But I thought, if I just did really like a simple lunge, and I could actually just be with my breath, I’m in the lunge. And when I twist open if I could really feel emotionally, Wrath wise, presence wise. And everything, just started simplifying more and more and more, so that it was more about my intention. And I think along the way, I realized that there is no end game, there is no end point. I know that some people believe that, you know, there are enlightened folks on the world in this on this planet. But from mostly from what I’ve seen, most people actually still have their human. And therefore grace, empathy, breathing, presence, intention. And as you said, coming back again, and again and again. But it was a little bit of a relief and permission for me, when you reminded me that it’s not the distance, it’s the intention. For some reason, I was just like, Ah, what a relief because that’s really doable, like any listener could do that. Any point during any day.

Kirsten Beverley-Waters 34:20
I want to liberate people in understanding that it isn’t these huge things that we have to do, to be healthier, to be happier to love yourself, doesn’t have to be fitting into a smaller pair of pants. But if that is what you want, and you desire for your own reasons, there is nothing wrong with that. And there’s constantly people and programs and social structures that are trying to convince you to fit into a specific box and I asked people to examine what box are you in? Is it of your own choosing and do you want it to Do unfold a bit and find something new. Because a lot of us just stay in the box because it’s easier than it is to take the first step out, because we think we have to jump out of the box, find a new box and do the next thing where literally, the first step could be just recognizing you’re in a box, just the awareness. And once you’re aware of it, like the first step can be, I want to change that that’s another step. Well, what does that change look like building on all those pieces so that we can all feel seen and loved and respected in our own journeys, and that it doesn’t require 100 mile race, or the perfect handstand or nailing crow for five minutes.

Sarah Tacy 35:59
Peter Levine, who is, you know, the person who started somatic experiencing, and I understand that there have been 1000s of years of wise people utilizing the body to help release trauma. But he’ll often say that we need challenge and to overcome challenges on a somewhat consistent basis, in order for us to recognize who we are recognize our edges, but also to feel confident and powerful. And as if we could make choices. And that trauma often comes from coming into situations in which the challenge overcame us. And then we weren’t able to get back up from it. And so as you’re mentioning, like CRO and a handstand, and I could be like, Yeah, who cares about the then it’s also like, and they’re like the times where when you do something new that you never thought you could do that there there are those elements of like, wow, I can do so much more than I thought. And as I think you were saying the challenges don’t have to start with Crow and they don’t have to start with 100 mile race, they can start small, you said just noticing you’re in the box, which reminded me of the idea of the reticular activating system, which would just say it is so powerful just to ask the question that our consciousness will be be in to see new answers. If we just ask the question. I’m in a box. What could my life look like if some of these walls came down? What are the walls? What do I want? And just an asking that we begin to see new, new possibilities. And I appreciate that, because I was actually unsure of like, I wonder what the next step is? Do you jump out of the box, do you and I love that it’s just like I’m in a box. I’m not sure I want to be in this box anymore. Just the curiosity. And you said it was the first time that you weren’t running with an external tow rope that you are running for yourself. And I’m wondering if you could describe what an external tow rope is and why it could be useful sometimes. And the transition to running for yourself as yourself

Kirsten Beverley-Waters 38:27
backing up just a little bit to what you were just saying. And like the challenges, I think it’s hard to imagine herself, moving forward, wanting anything for ourselves when we haven’t even asked how we got to who we are today. And how we came to these thoughts of our being of our habits of our presence. And so we’re often influenced by our parents, our teachers, our coaches, our mentors, our newspapers, our media, our books, the world around us is shaping us every day. And that is the tow rope, right? Like it’s, it is towing us in a direction. And that is helpful because we aren’t sure who we are and what we want. And it’s it’s nice to have some guide in some capacity, because you don’t want to just like come into this world and be like, Well, best of luck, like you’re good direction. And so there are many people with great intention for our best interests that can help move us in that direction. And that’s, you know, in in running, there were a lot of people including my father, mother, my coaches, my teachers, my friends who were pulling me in that direction and telling me that I’m good at this and I’m strong and I’m capable, and I’m a leader here and so that feels really good. It feels empowering. But there does come a point where I had to ask myself did I hook the rope to myself, or was it placed They’re for me. And if I didn’t hook it, I can unhook it. If I did hook it, why did I hook it? There’s a lot of questions there. Right. And that was, there’s 100 miles to ponder on it every mile peeling back the layers, so many hours. And I stepped away from running for a while, because I really believe the only reason I was running was because of my father. And because everyone who loved my father said, I looked exactly like him, which is a little terrifying right now. Because if we look at haircuts, like he in high school, and I now kind of have similar haircuts, it’s a little full too much for me. So I felt like a lot of my running was always stemming from that place. And so it never felt truly like my space. So when I stepped away, I said, if I’m stepping back into this ever, I want to step into it as something that I am choosing. And it took me a while to get back there. I started up again, I feel like yeah, it’s for me, because I felt like I was peeling back this layer, and it was for someone else. And it was while I was spending several years writing a program for yoga medicine on sex, gender, and identity and yoga, that I was grappling with my own identity and couldn’t articulate it and was reaching out to scholars and theologians and anthropologists and teachers from all over the world, asking them questions, learning about cultures and learning about humans that I was able to articulate what I had been feeling in my body. And coming out as non binary, freed me of that box. And also brought a new breath, and cadence to my run. And so when I was out there in that 100 miles, I felt like every iteration of Kiersten, who struggled to understand who was in the mirror, who was looking back and didn’t feel quite right, bought so that I could run that race. And every mile felt like a celebration of not giving up and not giving into these different pieces and unhooking that rope and freeing myself to spread my wings and trust that lie or flop. It is it is of my own doing. And it felt empowering. And every step, no matter how uncomfortable my feet felt from the endless amounts of rain, or the vomiting or the fatigue, I just felt so in myself, that none of that mattered. And it is powerful to know that when we can speak to who we truly are, and how we’re truly feeling in a moment that some of the biggest challenges or struggles feel like you’re just your greatest wind beneath the wings. Very better of me, I know. But you know, it just it felt so. Right. And I have slipped in different ways as I’ve moved over the last year feeling. Now I’m in Ohio, and there’s there’s more restrictions and laws that make me feel very uncomfortable. And I as part of what I’ve been sharing in the posts that are currently on my social media is about my own journey to reclaim that same feeling I had in the 100 which was only just this past summer of committing to the freedom of being me and knowing that that is enough, whether the world says it is or not whether people understand or not, I have to follow this path for myself and forge this path for myself because that is the greatest act of self love that I can practice on a daily basis. And so sometimes it shows up and running. Sometimes it shows up playing with the puppy or coaching an athlete or teaching a student or writing it is everywhere. And the more that I feel that the more that I feel connected to so much more than I ever imagined or or bargained for

Sarah Tacy 44:33
so beautiful it sounds like as you uncovered the layers and came into your truest self and into your identity that finally said yes. It’s it sounds like there was a weight lifted off that maybe couldn’t be named before. That when you said gave you wings I almost imagined even though you said you were throwing up, that there was like, a lightness or this energy that was moving through you that was new that was amplified that was free that that had possibly been, like, held down and back before. And just when I saw the video post race, and there’s just so much love streaming through you. And I also hear that now you’re having an experience where you’re being asked on a daily basis to have that Reclamation. And so there’s like a congratulations, and I’m sorry, I know that we will all have that of who am I and having boundaries and then having and feeling so good that you set the boundary and then having it violated and then having to like, reset the boundary. And I know that you know, someone in a cis gender body is not going to have to, like, reclaim that I’m a female, and that that’s okay. And that that’s enough. Congratulations on being able to keep reclaiming and running a race that was fully for you, as you

Kirsten Beverley-Waters 46:15
shared that. A long time when I listened to people are you when it comes to like, queer and trans rights and people talk about agendas are politicizing and I want people to feel loved as they are. I can have differences. In fact, some of the athletes I coach began with a DM from them, sending me threatening messages saying how an abomination or this and I always ask the question, I would love to learn more about you. Tell me more where you like, Where’d you grow up? Where are you from? Where are you sending me this? Because I don’t think that pushing away the difficult conversation is moving anything forward. And you saying that you you’ll never have to reclaim your cisgender female body isn’t true. Because you can in the choices you make of liberation of how you use your body, how you how you express what is femininity, we have such binary structures in society. And we think that haircuts and colors and clothing made a gender. Like it wasn’t that long ago that men were wearing dresses as babies like Franklin Roosevelt wore a dress like this not that long ago, you know, men and boys wore pink because it was close to blood and the essence of warriorship. But we’ve shifted it because there’s so much that’s happening in culture that we just let shipped by. And when people come to me, in any class, I want to feel like as a teacher, that I am seeing them as they are ready to be seen. And respecting that space. And knowing too, that there are parts and people who are not ready for parts of them to be seen, and maybe hiding it. And that is also okay. And that is their journey. And by providing safeness and support, I hope they find their own wings, it doesn’t matter who you are. You don’t have to identify as queer, or trans to be able to find that liberation. I think each of us are parts of us that are being held back. And they’re, they’re held there by deep beliefs and conditioning that we’ve never questioned how we came to the realization that I am this, and this is what I do. Who told you that? Was that a good feeling? And if I say it to you now, do you still feel good? Like, those are questions to continue to ask and are going to help all of us grow as humans.

Sarah Tacy 49:13
Of course, that makes a lot of sense. And I knew that and I’m in that journey and in that process. And I appreciate the reminder that the hard conversations are necessary and moving forward. You spoke about putting together a program for yoga medicine, that I believe was on sex, gender and identity that you spent a number of years studying with anthropologists and scientists and teachers and as you were diving deeper, like into this, also knowing that we’ve talked a few times on this podcast about just saying, Oh, I’m in a box. Do I want to be in this box? Where did this box come from? And I feel like this was part of the journey. journey that you went on? And then would you be willing to share some of that? Yeah,

Kirsten Beverley-Waters 50:04
absolutely. So your podcast is a great example of this. You have so many different micro courses, micro intersections for people to learn from and do self inquiry on, and I love podcasts like this one where it makes you think, and makes you ask questions about yourself, because what I learned as I was studying, and asking questions to philosophers, theologians, scholars, you know, people all over the world about sex, gender, and identity was how much I had just accepted. As who I was, without wondering my own backstory, like really digging into it, not just the facts of like I was born on this date, this is my family. This is the neighborhood I grew up in. But what were the like meaningful cornerstones of my life that helped me as a human, to understand my humanity. And so sex, gender and identity, the course and the questions that I was asking, we’re digging into, like, how does societies built how to culture shift? inquiring into sex, gender, and identity required that I also look at all of the ways in which I have been influenced into my understanding of my own own humanity. So like, from a neurological standpoint, our brains like to categorize things, we need to be able to label and identify something partly for that fight or flight, like, is this a threat? Is this safe. And so when we can’t articulate, we can’t categorize or label it, we get very confused, or we get very scared, or we are very aggressive. And so being able to label something, or name something can be both empowering, and also incredibly paralyzing. And so while I was unpacking all these pieces around sex, gender and identity, I opened the box of understanding being non binary. And then no sooner did I do that? Did I fall into a trap door of will nobody listen to anything I have to say about the woman’s experience any longer? You see what I’m saying? Yes. Like, I, myself have something that felt like it was, yeah, that was caging me for my entire life, only to lose a platform that quite honestly, I have spoken on. For a good majority of my, my adult life is women in sport. You know, women like empowerment, empowerment through movement, speaking on the female athlete, triad, all of these things, can I talk about them anymore, because now there is a space in society where somebody might say, you no longer get to speak on that. Because if you’re going to choose this word, to identify yourself, now I no longer associate with this word that has this power. And I’m like, Oh, great. What do I talk about? And where do i Where do I go from here? I can’t speak to the male experience. I can speak about, you know, men, because there’s different sex and gender male being the sex men being gender. So I definitely can’t speak to the male experience because of a lot of different biological aspects, hormonal aspects, and just identification from a gender standpoint, I can speak to women, and my being raised as a woman, but now I’m, again, I’m back in a new box, I like stepped out one I’m like, oh, there’s fresh air, I’m in the freedom and they’re like an cage. So going through the studies and talking to different types of teachers, you know, for example, in some Native American cultures, they use the term to spirited which is not to be used by anybody outside of that culture. And I say that because I have watched some individuals who identify as non binary use that term and that is not okay. Like, if you are not a part of that, because it is not the same thing. It is sacred and as spiritual. But these are individuals who are revered for their ability to speak from kind of like all aspects of it. But in the society that I am standing in right here, people don’t revere Me for having multiple understandings of masculinity and femininity. But it did make me ask, is that label important? And once again, the only reason it’s important is so somebody can categorize me by articulating that I was non binary. It wasn’t the word that freed me as a person. It was the understanding of my wholeness. So I don’t need the word to feel whole. If somebody asked me like, you know, do I identify as men or women or you’re like so you’re saying neither or both are all I’m like I identify as Kiersten, like I am, Kiersten and being able to say non binary because there’s a word, let me feel better in my skin. That’s it. Like, just let me live my life every single day. It didn’t change my relationships with my friends or my family, or how I doing basically anything. I’m still me, I have always been me. But this word, unlocked a piece that was hidden under there that I couldn’t see. And it’s funny, because so many people were like, Why do you have to be stuck on the pronouns? Why does it matter that you have this word, but we could go to the same church, the same cooking class, the same running group? Have the kids in the same school? And then they find out? I’m non binary. And that’s the one thing that I’m cut off because of, like, I’m not the one who’s making it. The thing? Does that make sense? Right? I’m just trying to show up as myself. And I can’t do that, when I’m trying to conform to something that isn’t me. And it’s not about wearing dresses, or not wearing dresses, because somebody could do a search on me and be like, well, you used to have long hair, did you and I’ve had this conversation? Do you cut your hair? Because like, No, I didn’t cut my hair because of my sexual orientation. Or because of my gender identity. I cut my hair, because I wanted my hair to be short. And I felt good in it. Like, why do you cut your hair? Why do you wear your hair out? Same thing? Like it’s not? Not everything is a political statement. Not everything needs to fit into that box of things. And the same thing with do you wear a dress or you don’t wear a dress? I know plenty of cisgender heterosexual women who feel absolutely super feminine in a suit and heels and full makeup. But I also know women who feel absolutely, like super masculine wearing the exact same thing that is personal to people. And when we start to unpack then why we’re so stuck on what clothes someone wears, what hair they how they identify as whether or not you’re worthy of humanity, it answers a lot bigger chin. And that was what I was digging into in my research is, you know, why is it that Eastern religions that tend to have more than one God, and you have lots of stories around transformation of figures that they transform from masculine to feminine, you know, even as you read in yoga philosophies, like the transition of these things, is not unheard of, right? But when we go into westernized religions, Abrahamic religions, we become very focused on male and female, it’s interesting that in some countries in the Middle East, people would think it would be terrible to be trans. It’s more accepted to be trans in some of these Middle Eastern countries than it is in the US. Now not saying that it’s accepted. What I am saying is that in those cultures, they believe well, if you’re trans, then you could still marry someone of the quote, opposite sex, right like that. So they’d rather you transition into this space. And but here, if we can’t categorize you male or female, then that’s definitely no like, Isn’t it enough that we like gay people get married? Why? Why do you want to branch over into these like spaces? There’s just a lot more nuanced pieces to humanity, then, am I a man? Or am I a woman, there’s also close to 62 countries to this day, who still have more than two genders. And long before colonization, there were there was far more countries and territories where gender was not binary. And so when people talk about like, trying to push an agenda right now, it’s like, we just don’t talk about the history because it’s easier to erase it. We don’t talk about trans medicine that was occurring in Germany, because a lot of it was destroyed by Nazis in World War Two, or the fact that militaries have used trans people or non binary individuals to cross dress as a form of spying to gather information because they could utilize utilize some of the androgynous look, that some people in this identifying category present as to their advantage. So

Kirsten Beverley-Waters 59:50
we’re using it for military purposes as well. There’s so many ways that it’s like we want to discredit it, and that’s why when I was researching all these pieces, I was like, my mind was kind of blown because there were a lot Have things that I didn’t know, because it’s easier just not to talk about it, it’s easier to erase it or eliminate it, than to have a conversation

Sarah Tacy 1:00:15
it reminds me of how someone could stay in an unhealthy situation because they know they can survive it, then learning a new way, because there’s going to be discomfort and fumbling in the finding of a new way. And they don’t yet know. Like, when we go into something new, can I survive this new thing, even if it means that it opens up love, it opens up acceptance, it opens up, it’s like, I get to survive and thrive with these privileges. And now someone’s asking me to open my perspective. I don’t think most of that is conscious. But I feel like on an unconscious level, there might be like, Why can’t we just keep things the way they are? For those that get to benefit from the privilege? And if there’s any ask like, well, what if we could learn? What if we could learn history and learn that there could be more and many, and we can actually just like we can be our human selves and the variety of ways it presents, instead of that being exciting. I can imagine for that there are many systems that it just feels, I don’t know, if I would survive, that I can survive, either anything from this hell or this heaven, whatever it is. But to change what I’m doing current form, I understand with other patterns and pattern breaking, that the body sees it as a threat,

Kirsten Beverley-Waters 1:01:38
I think you hit the nail on the head with a very specific word, their privilege. If I look at what I feared when I came, like when I was like, okay, non binary, like, Aha, this is it, and then immediately fell into the trap door of like, now I’m not going to be able to speak to like women’s issues, women, this women that what I was actually pushing up against is, there was still a greater privilege, being a woman, then there was to be non binary, and I did not want to release the privileges I had, being a woman. And that’s a lot to say, because certainly women have a lot of doors that are closed. But that’s what I was holding on to, like, I’ve worked so hard in my life, in sport, in yoga, to have a voice as a woman. And now I’m saying I’m not that, hello, I have to start here again, like do I want to do that, maybe I just don’t talk about the nonstationary thing as much. And I can still use that. And it’s that non attachment like, which is such a hard thing to rectify as, as a yoga teacher as a as a yoga student, as someone who has a great reverence for many different Eastern religions that talk about like, separating ourselves that really my energy in my consciousness, my spirit, whatever you want to call it, is contained within this vessel. And the less I attach to this vessel, the more I tap into my power tap into the divine. And so by adding this layer of non binary, am I not attaching a little bit more to this human form than is necessary? Or am I on layering, being able to actually articulate something so that I can release it. And at first, having that thought, and that discovery, it absolutely wasn’t attachment, I come to it so deeply, like, Thank you, I found it like tattooed on my body, this is me, this is who I am. And then I was like, actually, now that I’ve said it, I can breathe, I feel free, I can release this, I can go back to I am this vessel, I am all of this. And I’m none of this. And that’s part of what I find meaningful and being able to connect to those words. I think that when you can name something, right, like naming your fear release is part of its power. Same thing happens like when you can name an identity, you can release pieces of it so it doesn’t have such a hold on you. And I did an entire training on like, identities and wellness just as a in general where it’s like which identity showed up. I encourage anybody listening, like sit down one day and see how many identities that you can come up with like your professional, your personal, your interpersonal, your spiritual just to name all of them, and then ask how much time in that full day that you are awake? Did you commit to each of those identities and if you don’t like where you’re at in your life, you might want to address first, how much energy is being spent in each of those identities if I don’t like that, I spent most of my day being the housekeeper at my house. Like I might need to ask for help find ways around that so that professional Kiersten can rise to the surface a little bit more and get just a ton much more out of it. The

Sarah Tacy 1:05:02
thing that you just put out to the listeners, possibly as a takeaway, or as an exercise would be to look at the variety of identities. And I actually loved when you gave the housekeeper one because it helped me to see just how many identities I might have. And I might not have picked up on that, like, now I can name so many more just by you naming that one right there, beginning to notice beginning to choose where we want to put more of our energy. And then also just asking about the box, we’re in with the idea of the reticular activating system, being able to just say, like, Oh, that’s so interesting. I think I’m in a box. What is my box? Do I have choices in this box? How was it formed? So for me, it’s just more of the curiosity. And I love that the first step was curiosity, and learning where the box came from before we even jump out of it. And so another thing for the listeners, just taking some time, possibly to journal or sit with or let it stew over the rest of the lifetime. Just asking the question about the boxes, we’re in how we got there, do we want to stay do we want to leave? And I’m just thinking everything’s quite multi dimensional, and nuanced. No, part of maybe what I’m connecting is this idea that we are possibly all in the process of continuing to find who we are. But then also, the added step that you just named is finding words that can help people on the outside to understand what you’re feeling on the inside.

Kirsten Beverley-Waters 1:06:36
I think that if I want anyone to understand anything, is, I’m still working so much on being able to articulate these pieces, because I’ve spent a lifetime suppressing them. And so if you rumblings in my words or explanations, it’s not because I don’t feel it or know it. But to put it into terms that feel relatable to others is still not necessarily there for me. And it’s something I continue to work on and feel every single day. So I’m always grateful for opportunities like this to share those pieces. So more of it rise to the surface, and we can have more conversations.

Sarah Tacy 1:07:15
Thank you so much. And I’m wondering if there’s any programs that you’re wanting to have people know about or anywhere that they could find you.

Kirsten Beverley-Waters 1:07:25
In terms of where to find me, you can find me online at Katie WATERSTOP, calm, obviously, struggle Guru is out there. And I’m currently working on a program of our great unlearning, which will come out this spring. So people will have the opportunity to do some zoom sessions and connect with other people who are trying to unlearn various lessons of their life, so that we can move forward, advancing the conversations of what makes us great and powerful exactly as we are, and find new ways to challenge each other. So that’s what’s in the works,

Sarah Tacy 1:08:05
and they can find that program on your website. Yes, so

Kirsten Beverley-Waters 1:08:10
that will be you’ll see information for it in the next week or two. It should be out so end of February you’ll see information on there. Is

Sarah Tacy 1:08:17
that the same or different than the Ay ay ay are

Kirsten Beverley-Waters 1:08:23
so far out arrow? Yes, yes. So ad waters has a link to arrow. An arrow is spelled that way because it is actually Japanese and means Indigo and indigo and yoga is intuition. So I also have an arrow tattooed on the inside of my arm that I got after overcoming cancer as a reminder that anytime it felt like life was pulling me back, it’s only because it was trying to launch me forward. And that’s what we do with an arrow, we draw it back to propel it forward. Arrow wellness is my business and where I do a lot of retreats. So either one of them will link to each other available.

Sarah Tacy 1:08:59
Thank you so much. Thank you for your time, and it’s been nice getting to know you just a bit. And you know, hopefully, over time, we’ll get to know you more.

Kirsten Beverley-Waters 1:09:10
Thank you again for having me.

Sarah Tacy 1:09:17
Thank you for tuning in. It’s been such a pleasure. If you’re looking for added support. I’m offering a program that’s totally free called 21 days of untapped support. It’s pretty awesome. It’s very easy. It’s very helpful. You can find it at Sarah tacey.com. If you love this episode, please subscribe and like apparently it’s wildly useful. So we could just explore what happens when you scroll down to the bottom. Subscribe rate, maybe say a thing or two. If you’re not feeling it, don’t do it. It’s totally fine. I look forward to gathering with you again. Thank you so much.