057 – Camille St. Martin: Poetic Journeys of Self-Discovery & Recovery

Sarah Tacy [00:00:06]:
Hello. Welcome. I'm Sarah Tacy, and this is Threshold Moments, the podcast where guests and I share stories about the process of updating into truer versions of ourselves. The path is unknown and the pull feels real. Together, we share our grief, laughter, love, and life saving tools. Join us. Welcome to Threshold Moments. Today, we have with us Camille St.

Sarah Tacy [00:00:41]:
Martin, who is the author of Spilled: Poetic Confessions of Drinking, Self Discovery, and Recovery. Camille and I went to the same high school, obviously when we were younger and we have not had that many interactions since. I've seen her online. She is an amazing hula hooper. She is a marketing specialist and she is now sharing her story of recovery. And in many of the podcasts I've asked you in season 2 to really listen for conditions. Conditions that help us to move from being activated and spinning out or needing to distract, to be able to be activated and stay with it and stay in our body and make it to the other side. And some of these conditions that I've asked you to listen for are pause, win win situations, relational health, self love, self worth.

Sarah Tacy [00:01:39]:
What I would add in this one is gentle, slow, grace. I think what's important in this podcast is that there's an element shared about Ayahuasca and psychedelics and the potential for great healing, but how there's also a highlight around like this wasn't the end game. There was integration, there was falling back into old patterns that even though it shifted something at a deep level, that there was still then the daily work of creating new patterns and when there would be relapse, that that became an opportunity to look at oneself deeper to say now is the time where I want to just spiral and let it go, but to look at oneself deeper and that what was that trigger? Why did it happen this time to notice the grief and shame and to be with it and sit with it. And I would say that Camille's story is a beautiful example of coming back to oneself again and again, of getting lost and then deciding to find one's way again and again and again. I deeply enjoyed our conversation. I think there is so much wisdom in here and a boatload of honesty. And if her work speaks to you, again, her book is called Spilled Poetic Confessions of Drinking, Self Discovery, and Recovery. Today, we have with us Camille Saint Martin.

Sarah Tacy [00:03:13]:
She is the author of Spilled, and we were also in high school together. We were in the same what is it? Homeroom? Oh. With that. Yeah. So I'm gonna start off with a bio, and then we'll we'll get into the conversation. Camille is a writer, poet, performer, and advocate for joyous alcohol free living. Throughout her words, she aims to give solace, encouragement, and a poetic voice to those facing similar struggles with alcohol. Camille's unique journey and world travels have informed her creative work, providing insight and inspiration for others navigating the terrain of addiction and recovery.

Sarah Tacy [00:04:00]:
With her roots in Colorado, she also channels her expression through healing movement. She resonates strongly with the dragonfly, the symbol of transformation and change. Welcome.

Camille St. Martin [00:04:15]:
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Sarah Tacy [00:04:16]:
Yeah. So I read through your book of poetry, which was, I wanna say beautiful, but it's like beautiful and agonizing at the same time because I feel like it was really real. Yeah. My felt sense of it was that it brings a reader into some of the cycling and the aspects that are sometimes seen as a double bind of like, I must, I can't, and then any of the shame spirals, but then also the hope and working step by step to move from what is familiar to what is more optimal and truly aligned with your soul and spirit. And so I think it's a really honest read And I imagine that it would be wildly helpful for someone else going through the path who might feel like they should just be able to do it. Like it should just be easy or they should just be able to make a decision. Like reading your work might help somebody feel like, oh, this person obviously gets it. This person is helping me to see that this is really a journey with so many layers to it.

Camille St. Martin [00:05:43]:
Yeah. That those are the kinds of people I was hoping to reach because I was stuck in that for 10 years, probably maybe even 20 years. I don't know. Up until just a couple years ago, but I was wanting to quit in my head for so long, but not knowing how to change my habits. And this book really, like, digs into all those layers. And I felt really alone during those 10 years. Like, I felt very much in my head. I was journaling about it a lot, but I didn't find anyone else that really understood.

Camille St. Martin [00:06:19]:
Like, everyone else around me seemed like partying was fine. They're controlling it just fine. They're drinking just fine. But, like, I was really just hating myself for not being able to quit. And when I finally started reading about other people's stories is when I knew I had to share my own because that started to help me feel not so alone. I was like, oh my god. Like, other people are like spinning like this in their heads over and over again. And and, like, just kinda stuck in their habits.

Camille St. Martin [00:06:49]:
Once I heard about other people's stories, I was like, I need to share my own story in this way. Like, I feel like sharing it in poetry kinda gives it a unique voice. Yeah. And that's just how it came out of me and just how this book wanted to be. So

Sarah Tacy [00:07:02]:
You write at one point on page 126, it Sarah, I became living proof of shaking realities. And for me, that was just like, oh my god. That's it right there. Like that line in and of itself is it. But under that, it says, but no, No. No. I've been working too hard shaping this land, shifting what I see.

Camille St. Martin [00:07:21]:
Oh, right.

Sarah Tacy [00:07:22]:
From where I stand, I can't let it crumble down.

Camille St. Martin [00:07:25]:
Yeah. So that one line was really kind of like a pull between my old self that drank and had all these different ways of thinking about it, different mindset, and, like, knowing that was one reality, and then my new self that was working towards a different mindset around it. And so I was, like, kinda being pulled apart in that moment, but then choosing, no. I've been working too hard at this. Like, I am not gonna drink with you, and that is the reality that I choose. And so I think this whole journey and process has been, like, in how I shape my reality and how I see things and how I live my life. And so, yeah, that poem was was kind of an offering of what that choice felt like.

Sarah Tacy [00:08:14]:
I wanna say something on that, but there is just one more line that there there are a few that I pulled out in particular, and you're probably like, I wanna read the whole poem, not these lines. What are you doing?

Camille St. Martin [00:08:24]:
So sorry.

Sarah Tacy [00:08:27]:
There is another part. So and I think it has to do with what you were just saying too when you're choosing between two perspectives. I have a podcast on moving from familiar to optimal and it's called the tension field. And it's this idea that when you begin to do a new pattern, that the cells in your body all have these receptor sites, And then they have these ligands, which are the molecules of emotion that generally meet them. And they do like the tango together, And they know what they expect. And even if it doesn't feel great, they know that they can survive here. It could be a familiar hell or heaven. Right? Like, either way, it's known.

Sarah Tacy [00:09:11]:
And when you choose to make a new choice at the cellular level, there is the sense of withdrawal. There's a sense of abandonment. One is dancing new now and the other doesn't have a partner. And so I tend to think that like at a cellular level, there is a sense of abandonment and confusion and who's going to show up next. And if you keep holding on to that new way, that new idea that eventually something that vibrates the way that you want to vibrate is going to become a match. But in the in between time between making a new decision and having something else that vibrates similar to you and that will dance with you, that will like, say, I see you. This is not crazy. This is a great new way of living.

Sarah Tacy [00:09:59]:
It's something called what I was calling the tension field. That's a term I borrowed from craniosacral therapy that I am probably using slightly imperfectly. And so I think that those were some of the lines that I was drawn to. On another part on page 87, you were talking about people telling you to take control of it. And it says that somebody would say to you, the trick is to control it. And then you're claiming in this part, the trick is relearning life, repatterning love, reconfiguring enjoyment. So you don't need to control some trickster demon. And I love that idea of moving from control to repatterning, reconfiguring, relearning.

Sarah Tacy [00:10:47]:
And I'm wondering what things you've done or experienced within relearning. Like, what are you relearning about life or reconfiguring?

Camille St. Martin [00:11:00]:
Well, the first thing that pops in my head is this book was written probably over a whole year of kind of transition phase like you're talking about, like leaving that old thing behind and connecting with something else that you're gonna live with for however long. But the whole first, like, 6 months to a year of quitting drinking, I had to learn how to be really gentle with myself. I had to relearn who I was. Like, who am I in social situations without that drink in my hand? And learn that it's okay to leave a party if I'm not feeling it, if I'm feeling tired, if I if I don't wanna talk to people anymore, I don't have to, like, keep drinking through that in order to be someone that other people want me to be. Like, the person that's socializing and then the person that's getting out there. And it took me a couple months to just relearn who I am in society and like who I am in connecting with people and and just really getting real and authentic and just relearning who I am without that substance. And so I think recognizing that you're doing that and that that's a process and being really gentle with yourself was really powerful for me. You have to relearn who you are without this substance in hand all the time, and I don't think people realize that.

Camille St. Martin [00:12:32]:
I think people get really hard on themselves and then just avoid parties altogether or avoid going out altogether and feel like they are abstaining from this life. Mhmm. That they just can't partake in anymore because they have to drink with it instead of relearning who they are in that and being gentle with that and nurturing that so that you can deal with life without that substance.

Sarah Tacy [00:12:58]:
I'm sure there are a 1000000 different ways to do it. Yeah. It's interesting. I had a friend who became sober and he was asking his mentor what his mentor thought about, like, can I just, like, go to the bar with my friends? And his mentor said, well, if you go and hang out at the barbershop long enough, eventually, you're gonna get your haircut. What I love about you what you're saying though is, again, it changes it from control. In my mind, what I'm hearing is it's changing it from control to curiosity, gentleness, and intention. So I think what I'm hearing is that you might still choose to go out with your friends, But then, like, what do I do and who am I when I have a seltzer instead?

Camille St. Martin [00:13:48]:
Right. Yeah. And so I I pretty much shifted my brain, like, talking about the repatterning thing or whatever to be someone that doesn't drink. I don't even think about drinking anymore. And I can talk about some of the ways that if you want to. But Yeah. Yeah. Please.

Camille St. Martin [00:14:04]:
So I started this sober journey, I like to say, because it was like a journey of changing my mind about it. In 2020, it was during the pandemic, and all my habits were right in my face. It's not like you're going out to drink. It's not like you're I didn't have any reason to drink except for coping and boredom And also seeing that that's how I rewarded myself. Like, I would work on my computer all day and it was 5 PM. And I'm like, oh, okay. I'll have a glass of wine, and then it turns into 2 or 3. And even though, I mean, I wasn't getting drunk every night, but I was waking up feeling like not great.

Camille St. Martin [00:14:45]:
I wasn't sleeping well. And so all my patterns were like right there, and I was like, why am I doing this? I woke up in the middle of the night and I was like, this does not bring me

Sarah Tacy [00:14:57]:
joy.

Camille St. Martin [00:14:58]:
That is reason enough, and that one was a huge moment for me. And that actually came about because I was reading Marie Kondo. Have you ever read her?

Sarah Tacy [00:15:09]:
Yes. And then I think she was on, Netflix once too, and I was like, oh my god. I've never been so turned on by cleaning my house. This is amazing.

Camille St. Martin [00:15:18]:
So I know it sounds silly, but I had just gone through this whole process of getting rid of a bunch of things and, like, physically choosing things that just brought me joy and then releasing all the things that didn't bring me joy. And then it started, like, spilling out into the rest of my life, and I started to think about my work. And I was like, well, these things don't bring me joy. And then in the middle of the night, I had that same revelation. I was like, okay. Alcohol does not bring me joy. Like, what is it even doing for me? I'm just doing it habitually without even thinking about it. It's all these unconscious patterns that I'm following, but not thinking about that I've been doing for almost 40 years.

Camille St. Martin [00:15:57]:
And so how do I change that? I know this is a funny term to say, but I decided I was gonna brainwash myself. I was like, I'm going to wake up every single morning and read sober blogs every single morning and educate myself. And so that became part of my morning routine. I had a morning routine before that that and I can talk more about that later, but I incorporated reading sober blogs every single morning. And I I never thought to do that before. Like, all I had done was Google how to quit drinking. And there are not helpful articles on the first page of Google. I'll tell you that.

Camille St. Martin [00:16:37]:
Especially for this, like, weird gray area drinking where, like I mean, I never considered myself an addict. I wasn't waking up, like, shaking. I just wanted to quit, but I didn't know how to change my patterns. And so, yeah, once I started reading other people's stories and building up my sober toolbox, they call it, I started really shifting my thinking around it. So it was a big big part of changing my brain.

Sarah Tacy [00:17:02]:
What is in the sober toolbox?

Camille St. Martin [00:17:05]:
A lot of things that are in my morning routine, actually. Meditation, affirmations, journaling, exercise. But then there's also strategies like bringing a nonalcoholic drinks to a party instead of so that you have something to drink and you don't just fall back on drinking what's there. Or having, like, your go to drink you order at a restaurant that, like, makes you feel like you're fancy and drinking and joining in with people instead of, like, missing out on something. Like, I always order soda water and pineapple juice. Oh. I feel like I'm having a drink. But Yeah.

Sarah Tacy [00:17:41]:
You are. You you are having

Camille St. Martin [00:17:43]:
a drink. And like yeah. So just learning different strategies to change my habits and my mindset around it was huge.

Sarah Tacy [00:17:52]:
Do you have any blogs that you would recommend?

Camille St. Martin [00:17:57]:
Sober Bliss is one that I've read every single one that she's written. Sober School is really great. Euphoric Alcohol Free is another great one. And then I have a bunch bookmarked, and I would just, like, go through the cycle, and I can share with you if you want to share with people.

Sarah Tacy [00:18:14]:
Yeah. We'll put it in the show notes.

Camille St. Martin [00:18:15]:
Bottom of this. Yeah.

Sarah Tacy [00:18:16]:
That would be great. I just like sharing all resources, like, including your book. Yeah. And I love the idea. I mean, I'm not sure I've thought about that. Like, I feel like any listener, I think most people have habits that we could be blind to, that we could be using as vices, that we could be using, that maybe were lifesaving in some ways to help stabilize and distract us from something that would have possibly thrown us over the edge. And when we have that inner pull of it's time to make a change, I think it's good to have various ideas because not everything's gonna land the same for everyone. And I love the idea of brainwashing yourself.

Sarah Tacy [00:18:59]:
Of course, I have a morning practice with affirmations and what am I grateful for and what am I looking forward to and what are my core desired feelings. And I understand the importance. I think Joe Dispenza has a book called, like, Changing the Habit of Being Yourself. I don't love the title, but it is just all about how we can change our brains and change our lives. And it brings in quantum physics as well as like what we might attract in. But, yeah, the daily blog reading of, like, a life that you might want.

Camille St. Martin [00:19:28]:
Yeah. Like, who do you want to be? Who do you wanna shape yourself into being? And, yeah, I had done this before when I had been working my marketing job. I was like, I want to be a successful marketing person. So I read marketing blogs every single morning. I lived, ate, and sucked marketing, and that was who I wanted to be at that time. And and I kind of, like, related it to that. I was like, okay. Well, I shaped myself into that before.

Camille St. Martin [00:19:50]:
Like, how can I shape myself into a a sober person, someone that doesn't want to drink?

Sarah Tacy [00:19:57]:
So there's in the media kit, there's a part about 5 surprising facts. And you also spoke to me about this a little bit as well about the role that psychedelics or plant medicine also played in helping you to repattern the brain. But as we know, like, it also hits us on a cellular level and a soul level.

Camille St. Martin [00:20:19]:
Yeah.

Sarah Tacy [00:20:19]:
Is there any part of, like, how did you find that avenue, and what has it been like for you and done for you?

Camille St. Martin [00:20:26]:
Yeah. I'd love to share more about that. I think I first discovered it in 2017, like a couple of years before I very first quit drinking. I had never really heard much about it. I was traveling around in Colombia, and a couple people had talked to me about their experiences and how it helped with their addictions. Like, some guy told me that it helped him quit cigarettes. I think someone else told me that it helped them quit drinking, and I was so skeptical. I was like, you're just using a drug to, like, quit another drug.

Camille St. Martin [00:21:03]:
Like, that doesn't count. But so, yeah, I was really skeptical about it, But then it kept calling to me. I happened to stay at this Airbnb, and he also own this farm out in the pastures of Colombia, and he hosted Ayahuasca retreats there. And so I decided to give it a try. And you're supposed to be does. Well, when you're in Columbia, you know, I know. Oh,

Sarah Tacy [00:21:31]:
yeah. Totally. I would have too.

Camille St. Martin [00:21:34]:
Well, my other experience was I was staying in a different Airbnb. It was a yoga studio, and this girl came back from an Ayahuasca retreat, and she seemed so shell shocked. Like and I just didn't really understand, like, what in an emotional journey that it takes you through. You know, my only experience before with psychedelics had been in kind of like a party situation and never in a healing situation. And so now I understand what that girl was going through. But at the time, I was just very, like, curious. Like, oh, what is this all about? And so you're supposed to or they recommend that you have some kind of intention when you're going into it. And I don't remember what my intention was the first time I did it, but I do know that I was puking over the toilet.

Camille St. Martin [00:22:25]:
So for those of you that don't know, you purge a lot. But that purging is, like, part of the experience. Like, it's very cleansing and it's very emotional, like a huge emotional release. And I'm puking, and all of a sudden, all of the experiences of me puking every single morning, like, being hungover, like, very intensely rushed in, and I felt every single morning that I I was, like, feeling sick from alcohol. And I could I could feel it just felt, like, all that awfulness all at once in my body. And I was like, oh, okay. I guess, are we working on this? Are we, like, gonna do the quit changing thing? And so I laid down and, like, the medicine worked through me, and I felt like it was changing every cell of my body into a nondrinker. And, actually, I didn't drink for a couple months after that, but I'll go into that.

Camille St. Martin [00:23:25]:
But I also had a beautiful experience. I was speaking to the universe and the universe is like, I have so much fun being you. And and it said that, and I just felt like all these insecurities melts away. And that kind of complemented this journey to, like, more self worth and self confidence that I had been on. And, yeah, it was just a beautiful experience. And but also at the same time, like I was saying, like, I had felt like my all my cells, like, changing at a cellular level, kinda like how you were just talking about, like, into that of a nondrinker. I laughed, and I felt great for a couple months. I didn't drink for a couple months.

Camille St. Martin [00:24:07]:
I was like, okay. And it's kind of the mindset I have now, But this is before I did, like, all the work on changing my habits and, like, kind of, like, more the deeper work of the daily routines and stuff I was talking about. So I hadn't really done that deep work yet, but it gave me a couple months where I could see how things could be. Like, I knew how good it could be. And so there is a couple months where I felt great. I didn't drink. Then I started dating this guy that was a drug addict and spiraled into, like, a couple years of being even worse. And I also actually hadn't experienced I got LASIK when I was in Columbia, and they tore my cornea.

Camille St. Martin [00:24:52]:
And so I could not see out of one eye for a couple years. So that was like perpetuating some more drinking and coping. So like I hadn't learned how to cope yet. I hadn't really dug into the whys of my drinking after that first Ayahuasca experience. It was just like, I had hoped that there was some magic switch, and I was just gonna be fixed. And that's why I sometimes have a hard time, like, recommending to people like, oh, yeah. This is gonna help with your addiction because, like, I feel like there's so many more layers of things that complimented the Ayahuasca that that eventually, I'm more able to help me cope. But I actually now, like, looking back, do feel like it changed me on a cellular level then.

Camille St. Martin [00:25:35]:
And then I had to do the work to, like, catch up with it and be able to to be that person that I could see that I could be, like, that time right after I did the Ayahuasca.

Sarah Tacy [00:25:47]:
Yeah. I think that that's, like, considered integration.

Camille St. Martin [00:25:52]:
But the last time I did it was very powerful too. That LASIK experience that I just talked about, like, it was, again, like a a struggle. And then the last surgery that I had, they fixed it, kind of. But it was like a couple years of hell that I went through that were, like, still stuck in my body. And you had talked about this with someone else on a different podcast, like, how that energy kinda gets stuck in your body, like and it's like, oh, yeah. You're healed, but, like, after surgery, but there's still, like, that energetic stuff that's stuck in you. And so and the last time I did Ayahuasca, I I had this, like, little being came up to my eye and was like, oh, what's going on here? And then, like, all that pain rushed in again. Like, it it was that same kind of feeling where you experience everything all at once.

Camille St. Martin [00:26:41]:
And all that pain from the past couple years of drinking and coping with, like, the eye eye thing, like, all that pain came rushing in, and then it, like, dissolved and felt like it was healed. And it was right after that where I'd felt so unblocked. That's when I started writing poetry. It was, like, pretty much the day after that. When I was 17, I wrote poetry all the time. I, like, wandered around and I loved to write. And then I went through, you know, my twenties and then got into marketing and kind of got disconnected from myself. And then after the last Ayahuasca journey, I felt very connected to who I really wanted to be.

Sarah Tacy [00:27:20]:
As you were saying, you're changed on a cellular level, and then you started dating somebody who is an addict and you had the eye surgery. If I were to imagine the cells kind of as we were talking before, like, they're vibrating one way and they're just, like, waiting for the molecules of emotion to, like, oh, okay. We won't be meeting each other. Right. And for

Camille St. Martin [00:27:47]:
Yeah.

Sarah Tacy [00:27:49]:
It's maple season right now in Maine, and there's this process that's really symbolic to me that I think is really profound, which is that when everything looks dead outside and people are often feeling like somewhat hopeless in March when it's often like muddy and cold, and we really haven't seen the sun in a long time, And there aren't a ton of signs of life. Like if you know what trees to go to, if it's above 40 degrees during the day, this really sweet earthy water will pour out of a tree, but then it has to freeze again at night. And this analogy was really important to me. It has to freeze again in order to get the water the next day. And so this is like on the precipice of having spring, of having change. Like, it's not a direct line from hard winter to spring. It's the freeze thaw, freeze thaw. And so when I first noticed that pattern, I was coming out of intense, intense sleep deprivation, where I just kind of felt like I lost myself for many years.

Sarah Tacy [00:28:54]:
And I would get a night where I'd have like a few hours of sleep and I'd have some ideas of like, who I'm going to become and what I'm going to do. And then that night would be like, multiple things would happen again. And then I would fall way back down to, oh my gosh. Like, I'm never gonna have my brain back a taste of hope. And then we have to go back sometimes to the frozen place, to the place that might not feel as good. For some people they love like the cold and the wintering, but like in this analogy, it's like that going back, actually going back even deeper into the freeze, into the alcohol, it's like a remembrance of everything you actually in that part, like, don't want. There can be containment and healthy retraction, but I would imagine that it would make it that much more powerful when you choose not to drink again. Like you did it once, but then that freeze thaw, like, the going back to it, I can imagine when you come out on the other side that it's like, I really know I want this.

Sarah Tacy [00:30:03]:
Like, now I really see the polarity, and I really know what I want now.

Camille St. Martin [00:30:07]:
Yeah. And, actually, you're reminding me of the whole, like, 1st year process kind of of quitting drinking. Like, since that moment I told you about in 2020, I didn't just quit drinking totally. I I had many relapses during that 1st year, and I really dug deep with every relapse and journaled and journaled and was like

Sarah Tacy [00:30:28]:
Yes.

Camille St. Martin [00:30:29]:
Was like, why? Like, why did I do that? What was the trigger? And then looking at it that way, I was, like, able to change those habits and and just be okay with it, but then I felt stronger every time. You know? I and then and then once I did that with with, like, every little habit and trigger, then, like, then, like, I come back with even more conviction.

Sarah Tacy [00:30:53]:
That's really cool.

Camille St. Martin [00:30:55]:
Yeah.

Sarah Tacy [00:30:56]:
I'm loving what you said about every time you relapse, that you took it as an opportunity to get to know yourself better and to understand the triggers and to understand, yeah, who you are. Is there anything from the book that you want to read?

Camille St. Martin [00:31:14]:
Yeah. I can I can read the relapse one?

Sarah Tacy [00:31:16]:
Perfect.

Camille St. Martin [00:31:18]:
Guilty sips, sitting with champagne by the fire. While I desperately hope it stokes your desire, inspires you to tell me all the things you never do, but it doesn't. Instead, I am once again left in my head wondering why. Once again, I said goodbye to all my sober time for something so stupid. Agonizing over why I did what I did, why I drank what I did once again, just for a hope of a taste of you, a clue of what could be, a hint of what to do, but left with nothing except an empty glass, having to start over once again back to square 1, day 1 all over again. And I wonder why that has to be. Those glasses of champagne didn't erase everything I've learned so far, didn't erase every past moment of sobriety. I saw how it can be, and I can still choose that gracefully.

Camille St. Martin [00:32:11]:
Honestly, the thought of starting over makes me wanna drink even more. Like, fuck it. If we're gonna throw it all away, let's just do it well. Hell, what does it even matter anymore? And just like that, a relapse can become an excuse to spiral instead of choosing what I really want to do and that is just not drink and to be the best person I can be. I don't need to deny who I really am now just because I made a mistake. Because just like that, a relapse can become a slide if we don't take a moment to see why we took that first one and simply just not do it again. It's that moment between saying, fuck it. I don't really Sarah.

Camille St. Martin [00:32:45]:
And actually, I really fucking care a lot that makes us who we are, that defines how far we've come. So then still find ourselves back on day 1.

Sarah Tacy [00:32:56]:
That's really beautiful. Again, I keep using the word beautiful, but I'm like, I'm I should more like if I were to look for more accurate word is I could instead describe that. I feel like I could feel my eyes welling up a little bit. The power of the moment of what sounds like grief and shame and hope and desire and willpower and honesty all in one moment.

Camille St. Martin [00:33:29]:
Yeah. And can be really hard when you're trying to quit and then you do mess up. And then it sometimes makes you want to drink more because you have so much shame around it. Instead of like I started to just call it learning moments. It's now been like 2 years for me, but, like, the first year, I was, like, counting my day 1. It was, like, day 1, day 2, day 3, day 4. And, like and then you drink and you mess up and, like, you that can make you feel even worse and and, like, want to drink even more instead of, like, looking, like, why did I do that? And, like, what changes can I make in my life to to change that? So, yeah, this poem is kind of like that moment when I was stepping away from that.

Sarah Tacy [00:34:17]:
When I read another of the 5 surprising facts, I wanna preface what I'm about to say first by saying, like, I really hear the courage and fearlessness that has been an element throughout your life. And so number 5 is a common theme in Camille's life is to not be held back by fear and to embrace the unknown. And so it talks about at 17, you hitched across the US. In the thirties, you sold off everything you owned to live abroad. And then maybe I would like skip up to number 3 where it's when you decided to write your book that you left marketing and moved into a converted van. A drunk driver, hit your van. We could talk about that if you want. I'm so sorry.

Sarah Tacy [00:35:11]:
And I imagine that then there's like a recreation again. And then the next step in part 5 is being here and bearing your heart. And so I do hear the courage. And I also hear in some of those parts, my teacher will say that we, all of us, have different amounts of like fight, flight, sometimes freeze as well, but like healthy fight or flight that we could have for every day. And so for some people, it's like how much they need or want to travel or going on a run. And the pandemic really took down a lot of that. And so I can hear in these things how like, your ability to, like, leave places and start something new and go to something new, like the courage in that, but also the movement in that, the like, some flight in that. And what's so interesting about this, like, space that you're in now is that bearing your heart is really the opposite of flight.

Sarah Tacy [00:36:18]:
And I'm not saying that flight is bad. I'm saying like, we all have it and it's useful, but to come into a place in your life where you are now bearing your heart and in the preface of your book, you write, I am not anonymous. This is not a secret. I am not hiding. Here is my heart. And I'm going to add the layer that you're married, that you're about to have a baby and that these things are very like earthy, which doesn't mean that again, that we leave our need to travel and like see the world. But just for me, it seems really interesting that as you have been changing your minds and your patterning, that there is this thing that you're doing that is like very grounded and vulnerable and here and present.

Camille St. Martin [00:37:09]:
Yeah. That's a really good insight. My dream for a long time was to travel the world, and I was gonna travel forever and see every country and never have any roots. And I just changed. I was like, I want that. I want roots and I want to be grounded and I want a family. And, yeah, it was a huge shift for me. And, yeah, it almost does feel more vulnerable and more present.

Camille St. Martin [00:37:38]:
Like, yes, I'm, like, here, and I'm not, like, running away or moving locations whenever things go wrong. It's just here, and we're going to deal with it and work through whatever comes up and make life beautiful. So

Sarah Tacy [00:37:56]:
That makes me wanna ask the question of, like, what do you do or how do you experience joy? Because there's something about the line where it was reconfiguring enjoyment. But before I ask that question, being with, like, wanting to have a family and staying here and, like, being with what arises, which to me is also part of an Ayahuasca journey is, like, really having to be there with everything that arises.

Camille St. Martin [00:38:23]:
Yeah. I feel like that's also about to happen to me in birth too.

Sarah Tacy [00:38:27]:
Yo. We'll have you on again next year. Threshold moments when you're postpartum. It's a it's a threshold. Mhmm. And it's it's so powerful and, like, so incredible that you have been developing these skills to be present when activation happens to, like, be present and look at yourself and ask questions and journal and write poetry. And I imagine that, like, when you're hula hooping too. I just have to imagine that it's, like, therapy in its own way even if it's I don't know if it's just for enjoyment, but, like, my body right now is undulating if you can see me.

Sarah Tacy [00:39:09]:
Like, I don't know how to hula hoop, but I'm pretending that I have a hula hoop on.

Camille St. Martin [00:39:12]:
And Yeah. I love a flow, like, really gets you in the moment and allows you to be

Sarah Tacy [00:39:17]:
Because all of these skills that you're doing for yourself are such a beautiful gift for the child that you are bringing into this world. Because when you learn how to cope, it's less likely that your child's gonna grow into the pattern that it's their job to co regulate the the Sarah, which is not an unusual pattern. And so so beautiful that you're developing these skills. And I don't think that any parent has perfected them. So I don't wanna put any, like, perfection energy onto it, but I'm I just wanna say that it's it's a gift. Like, everything that you do for self love for yourself is such, in my opinion, a gift for your child. And I would also ask you you're married? Yeah?

Camille St. Martin [00:40:07]:
Yeah. We we did a handfasting ceremony. Oh.

Sarah Tacy [00:40:10]:
I love it. In your own way.

Camille St. Martin [00:40:12]:
Yeah.

Sarah Tacy [00:40:13]:
Let's do it in your own way. I love it. So the question is left about, like, I actually don't care if it's marriage or hand fasting or whatever form. The question was more around, as you begin to build coping skills, move into self worth, self love, self reflection, taking responsibility for yourself, how has that shifted in the way that you are in partnership with others?

Camille St. Martin [00:40:46]:
I feel like it makes me more committed. It's more about the partnership and not just about me. I do feel like when I was drinking a lot, I was in a more selfish space. And if things weren't working out, then you just leave. Like, you're not doing any work. And, yeah, I think doing all this work on myself has allowed me to see that, you know, we can also do work within our partnership and grow with each other. It's helped me to feel a lot more committed. And But yeah, that's a really good question.

Camille St. Martin [00:41:24]:
I never even really thought about that before.

Sarah Tacy [00:41:26]:
Well, I was thinking about the relationship that you said you were in post your first Ayahuasca ceremony. And I imagine that the person you're in a relationship with now is not that person.

Camille St. Martin [00:41:35]:
No. Okay. Alright. And

Sarah Tacy [00:41:41]:
so to me, it just it also seemed like this clear thing of, like, as you work on yourself, like, as you, like, move more and more into blueprint of yourself, that you're more likely to be in a partnership that if you respect yourself more, then that person's also gonna respect you more. Yeah. Absolutely. Mandatory and vice versa. There's just, like, more respect all around.

Camille St. Martin [00:42:00]:
Right.

Sarah Tacy [00:42:00]:
That was kind of what I was assuming, and so I wanted to see what you're dealing with.

Camille St. Martin [00:42:05]:
Like, attracted, I think, what exactly that I need and deserve and want. I always had a problem when my partners drank. Like, then then, it was just like an excuse to drink, and like, that's what we did together. And he doesn't drink, and he's super supportive in me not drinking and writing this book. And, yeah, that's everything that I wanted. Yay. Congratulations.

Sarah Tacy [00:42:28]:
Yes. I never really talk about this, but my husband and I don't really drink either. And I wouldn't say that it was a big journey, just more for me a realization at some point where I'm like, oh, I just wanna feel good and Yeah. Like, have energy. And so almost at the same point and really, like, right before we met each other, we both just kind of stopped. And it's maybe different in that if we were at, like, a fancy restaurant who made really good drinks, like, maybe. But I, like, really love Pellegrino with a, like, a twist of lime. Yeah.

Sarah Tacy [00:43:07]:
And I really like feeling hydrated. And I think you're right. Like, I haven't really given much credence to the importance of Steve being on the same page. I think I always just figured I would do what I wanted to do with that. But I think that you're right. That is actually probably wildly helpful to have a partner who just also like, yeah, don't need that. Don't want that. And just

Camille St. Martin [00:43:35]:
Yeah. So that last time that I did Ayahuasca, I was talking about I went down to Mexico and I ended up staying there for 3 months. I was only supposed to go there for 2 weeks and that was the first time I had traveled sober. And I attracted so many people to me that were sober. I just, like, found myself surrounded by sober people, and all my friends were sober down there. And then when I came back here, all the people that I was hanging out with were sober. Like, I didn't even need to intentionally build a community. Like, I just found that once I was talking about it, I was attracting it to me.

Camille St. Martin [00:44:10]:
And I felt like when I first quit drinking, I wasn't really talking about it. It was almost like like I felt ashamed or, like, people would think I had a problem or or I didn't know how to explain it. Like, oh, why aren't you having a drink? And you have to, like, come up with an answer. But, like, once I started having more conviction about it and talking about it, then I started connecting with people that didn't drink and then found myself surrounded by sober people. So, yeah, I think you once you're putting the energy out there, you attract the right people.

Sarah Tacy [00:44:43]:
I don't have the exact right words for what the real process is, but the gist of it is you have it's called unconscious incompetence, which just means like there's a pattern that you don't like and you're not really even aware that it's there. Then you have conscious incompetence where it's like, I don't love the word incompetence here, but it would be like, here's a pattern. I don't like it. And it could be that back and forth with like, I don't do it, then I do it. And I don't. And then it's like that. And then there's conscious competence where it's like, you're trying. You're like, okay, I don't drink.

Sarah Tacy [00:45:12]:
And I will look at the blogs every single day. It's a little bit like I'm sticking to it. It's worked for a long time. I might have a fallback here, but I know I'm gonna keep going forward. And you're in this place. And then when you hit the unconscious competence,

Camille St. Martin [00:45:27]:
I feel

Sarah Tacy [00:45:27]:
like that's the stage that you're talking about where it's like, I wasn't even trying to attract somebody who didn't drink. I wasn't trying to have this community. It's just, you know, who you've become and what you're attracting, and it becomes like the unconscious competence where it's the energy. It's more

Camille St. Martin [00:45:45]:
who you are. Like it's more your personality.

Sarah Tacy [00:45:48]:
Yeah. I also have the lingering question, like, what brings you joy these days?

Camille St. Martin [00:45:55]:
I love to dance, and I've we've been going to ecstatic dance once a week. Well, I love that my partner is actually open to going. Like, that's not normally something he would do, but he goes with me because he knows I love it so much. And he I love that he's open to new experiences. It's been very joyous to dance with my baby inside of me and, like, I hope that I impart some of that joy to him in dancing. And I love seeing all the little kids that go there every week too. And it's just yeah, incorporating dance into my pregnancy has been really important to me to make sure that I still do that and and find joy in that. So that has been very joyous

Sarah Tacy [00:46:40]:
to me. Thank you. Dancing brings me joy too. I love it. And I love, like I can just think dancing with your baby inside, and then I can say for myself, like, dancing with them outside. And I always feel like when I sway, their body is, like, picking up on the rhythm and yeah. Now we have kitchen dance parties, and the girls are older.

Camille St. Martin [00:46:59]:
Oh, fine.

Sarah Tacy [00:47:02]:
Would you like to close us out with a poem?

Camille St. Martin [00:47:09]:
I have one that's my favorite, but then I have another one that popped up from our conversation. This is a poem for that somebody. It's hard facing who you used to be, and people think they know you. That crazy wild girl. Drunk me. I don't ever want to see her again, even if people like that version. It's not real me. So my questions are, how do I get over my inhibitions slowly? How do I handle these emotions gently? How do I find my sense of humor again Patiently.

Camille St. Martin [00:47:56]:
That girl's humor was barbed anyways. Snarky, sarcastic, and mean. No wonder people avoided me. I am sorry to the people I unintentionally hurt, who didn't deserve the sharp slice of a poison tongue. I'm sure it stung. I was so mean. Why? I wanna tell that girl. It's okay to cry.

Camille St. Martin [00:48:15]:
You are loved. You are one with the universe, the stars, and the moon. Soon soon, you will see. In the meantime, please stop killing me because we are on a slow death Sarah with every liquor store stop, backed up bottles down the hall. It's all going to be okay. Please just listen to me. Stop trying to be someone you're not. You are loving, kind, sensitive, not this razor tongue demon that shoots digs and barbs.

Camille St. Martin [00:48:40]:
How far down this path do we need to go? Please don't die with this disease. Please settle into your heart. Instead of letting every upset restart a drunken spiral of denial, a pile of disasters you've started to call life, I need you to fight. You're better than that. You are love. You are light.

Sarah Tacy [00:49:03]:
I love reading your book, but I really love when you read your book.

Camille St. Martin [00:49:08]:
That one's been standing out to me a lot lately because I was just reading a little synopsis actually, of that first Ayahuasca experience that I was telling you about, and I hadn't even remembered writing it. And in reading it, I was looking at myself in the past and, like, looking at myself with a lot of compassion, and I wasn't hating myself anymore. I was seeing myself as someone that needed care and healing and love. And so I feel like a lot of this book is about that. Like, looking at that person I was in the past and giving them the encouragement and care and love that I really needed then. So and then, yeah, this one popped up to me when we were talking because it's kind of about healing that unseen energy and forgiving yourself. It's called healing what you can't remember. Hell is what you can't remember.

Camille St. Martin [00:50:08]:
Drunken fights filed away. Who you were that day, that time is lost, forever gone. But do the shameful things we do drunk stay stuck in our soul? A field of unseen energy waiting to be healed, Actions that were never acknowledged or dealt with still felt in movements and words, vibrations and tones that get stronger alone, but it's time to move on. Acknowledge, deal, heal, release who you were that day, that time. I see you. I hear you. I hold you. Now it's time to say goodbye to that time.

Camille St. Martin [00:50:49]:
I forgive you.

Sarah Tacy [00:50:53]:
That's a great place to close, the I forgive you. Thank you so much for coming on today. If someone wanted to I think at the beginning we were saying like, this is so great for somebody going through this journey, being on this journey. I also feel like it's a great read for anybody who is like a companion of somebody going through this journey. Mhmm. Because I think that it sheds light on the perspective. And you just mentioned going back to the one who was drinking and going back to her with compassion, which is very much like a thing that we do in somatic healing is to go back on the timeline and bring your present adult self to offer layers of support that that one who was in the trauma, the layers that they didn't have then. Yeah.

Sarah Tacy [00:51:41]:
And so I think that this book can be a layer of support for not only those on the journey or maybe just like going out of the journey, but possibly even just people who are in relationship with people on that journey.

Camille St. Martin [00:51:55]:
Yeah. I've gotten a lot of feedback from people that have had family members going through this and said that the book was really helpful. And then I've also gotten some feedback from people that don't necessarily struggle with drinking, but really appreciated reading someone's journey of giving themselves permission to live well and to look at themselves with compassion on a day to day basis. So

Sarah Tacy [00:52:22]:
I love that. Yeah. I think that we can all have some reminders when you said like there was a part where you said like gently, slowly. And I think that anyone could read this and take those elements of compassion and reflection and, and the process of what it's like to ever change a pattern that we wanna change, no matter what that pattern is.

Camille St. Martin [00:52:47]:
Yeah.

Sarah Tacy [00:52:49]:
Thank you so much. Thank you. We'll we'll have your website on there. We'll have the blogs that you mentioned. Is there any other plate thing that you'd want people to know before we sign off?

Camille St. Martin [00:53:00]:
You can get the book on Amazon right now. The full title is Spilled Poetic Confessions of Drinking, Self Discovery and Recovery by Camille Saint Martin. And then I also have a area on my website where you can sign up to win a signed copy.

Sarah Tacy [00:53:13]:
Awesome. Well, thank you so much. And thank you, listeners Thank you. For being here for this story. Thank you for tuning in. It's been such a pleasure. If you're looking for added support, I'm offering a program that's totally free called 21 days of untapped support. It's pretty awesome.

Sarah Tacy [00:53:46]:
It's very easy. It's very helpful. You can find it at Sarah. And if you love this episode, please subscribe and like. Apparently, it's wildly useful. So we could just explore what happens when you scroll down to the bottom. Subscribe, rate, maybe say a thing or 2. If you're not feeling it, don't do it.

Sarah Tacy [00:54:08]:
It's totally fine. I look forward to gathering with you again. Thank you so much.