085 – East Forest: Transforming Consciousness Through Music

Sarah Tacy [00:00:06]:
Hello. Welcome. I’m Sarah Tacy, and this is Threshold Moments, a podcast where guests and I share stories about the process of updating into truer versions of ourselves. The path is unknown, and the pull feels real. Together, we share our grief, laughter.

Hello and welcome to Threshold Moments. Today, I had the unexpected surprise of having East Forest on the podcast. I reached out to his fiancee, Radha Wepner, last night. She and I share a connection to the Nosara Yoga Institute, and I asked if he would want to come on to, you know, celebrate and spread the word of his upcoming film release.

Sarah Tacy [00:01:05]:
And yeah, 12 hours later or less, here we were recording. And so with, like, very little preparatory time and in some ways, a lifetime of preparation, which I would also say if you’re unfamiliar with East Forrest, his music is often used alongside transformational spaces. And so for me, that meant for many years as I taught yoga classes, his music was on the playlist. And my experience of finding the right music to go with the sequencing would be that as my body is twisting open and music that is meant for transformation begins to shift and amplify the consciousness or almost free the answers that perhaps were stuck in my body. And I feel like I have more revelations and more settling into my knowing and more of a sense of connectedness to a oneness and some peace and a sense of support.

Sarah Tacy [00:02:12]:
I also asked my husband if he had any experience with East Forest. And he said, yes, there was a journey space I was in and a particular song came up and it moved me into this great feeling and sensation around a very specific memory and possibility and creation. And he put it on and I went outside to see the girls. And when I came back in just last night, I saw him weeping at the table. And this speaks to the way that music and consciousness and time dance and weave together, that a song can amplify our experience in a transformational space. And then if we were to go back and listen to it at another point, that amplification, that sensation, that beyond consciousness knowing can be received again.

Sarah Tacy [00:03:30]:
Without further ado, I introduce to you or offer to you a short conversation with East Forrest. He had a half an hour as he is now touring and releasing this movie. And so I wanted to respect that time. So here is a little clip, 30 minutes with East Forest.

Sarah Tacy [00:04:37]:
Enjoy. Hello, and welcome to the Threshold Moments. Today we have with us East Forrest. Since 2008, Krishna Trevor Oswald, who is known as East Forrest, has used music to guide listeners through modern journeys of deep introspection. His electro acoustic project straddles the worlds of ambient, neoclassical, electronic, and indie pop with guest appearances of spoken word from spiritual teachers. He inspires to leave a legacy like Ram Dass of love and something about more than just him, something that is unfolding. East Forest has a new film out called Music for Mushrooms. It’s an 82 minute narrative feature film, an ode to the transformative potential of art and introspection in a world that is aching for healing and connection.

East Forest [00:05:50]:
Welcome. Good to see you.

Sarah Tacy [00:05:54]:
I’d love to also give a moment to Radha Webner, your fiancee, who connected us here, whom I actually don’t know super well, who I met last year in Costa Rica, and whom because of her and because of her inspired action, many of us who have been studying and teaching alongside Don and Amba Stapleton had an opportunity to be with him in his last weeks of life. And so just immense gratitude for that in particular and also for this moment. One thing that with you, I’m specifically wondering if there was something that called you to make music for psychedelics and per in particular, mushrooms.

East Forest [00:07:50]:
Radha, my partner, who it sounds like is the one who is the link for us, her birth name is Marissa. So Marissa Radha Webner, if people are wanting to look her up. But I’m actually sitting in New York City right now, and so I guess my mind is right there because I just got here last night, and I spent all my twenties here. And that’s basically right when I got out of school, graduate school, which is the first time I’d been out of any school. I just kinda plowed through everything. This is where I had those formative years, and you’re really young and you’re trying to find yourself. And so I think my mind like, I’m actually only a handful blocks from my first apartment. When I walked up there last night, just was just remembering what it felt like to be here, particularly in a summertime, which it is now.

East Forest [00:08:45]:
And how at least back then, you certainly looking backwards, you always feel like you you can see how you were trying to find yourself. But then it makes me think about how I’m trying to find myself now. Like, we think we’re maybe more sure of ourself. It’s like, well, I’m sure I’ll look back on this time and think like, oh, yeah. Yeah. I remember that time. I thought I was this or that or had these ideas that I was holding. And in some ways, that feels a little destabilizing, I suppose, because you’re like, well, who who are we or what is it that we really identify with? And to answer your question, I suppose I I just remember being back in my twenties here and really wanting to, like, expand or, you know, make a mark or just kind of burst out of what I perceived as my parents’ life that was very, like, mundane and wanting to just do something more.

East Forest [00:09:38]:
And I suppose in some ways, I did break out of some of those, like, mindsets, but I also still feel trapped by them in some way. So I don’t know. Like you said, there’s no actual destination, and that’s very true. And I think I had a plan a when I was here, and, eventually, that turned into a plan b or c, which I didn’t. I didn’t originally anticipate I would be focused in the psychedelic scene or making music for journey spaces or anything in the wellness space anything like that. It wasn’t really a world that I was very anchored in before that, so who knows? It’s always a surprise, but I think I was pushed into it in some ways by life falling apart and by things not working and so you start to get more desperate in a way. And there’s a song I did with Muji. I think he has this line about when we are desperate we discover, And I think that’s I just think that’s a great way of looking at it and putting it.

Sarah Tacy [00:10:42]:
I’ve been reminded quite a bit lately of something that Boyd Varty sometimes shares, this idea of the track of not here. He’s a lion tracker and also navigates some of these spaces that you do within the psychedelic world and how important the track of not here is as we’re tracking our lives. So if you are tracking a lion, so specifically, or you’re tracking your life and you’re trying, like and you realize like, oh, this isn’t it. I’m lost. Not here. That that would be as important of information as would be, this is it, and here’s the next step. And I feel a calling. And I see this vision.

Sarah Tacy [00:11:23]:
And I don’t know exactly how to get to that vision, but I see the vision that, you know, sometimes we can really get caught on needing the vision or feeling the pull, but also how important it can be when the vision’s not there and the pull’s not there and the turn on isn’t there. And so when you said the mundane of your earlier life, it might be a hint of not here, not now. I wonder where else. Even to open up the curiosity of where else. Where else might I turn even if it’s inward or if it’s towards a different substance or a group or people or experience?

East Forest [00:12:00]:
Well, I mean, in some ways, it’s about holding these, like, dual or triple, all these different feelings at once. Because in many ways, life is still mundane even though it’s very like, there’s a lot of things happening that are very exciting, or I can say, like, oh, I accomplished this thing like the other nights, you know, and 20 years ago, that would have been like a dream. But then right afterwards, you’re sitting by yourself, and it’s the same. Like, it’s nothing’s changed really. You know, you still need to go get some food and, you know, deal with trying to sleep and that the chores you have to do. It’s all the same. So in that way, it is a facade and, you know, chasing our tails around achievement or the ways we identify success or so forth, but simultaneously hold. Like, these are real things that you can feel sometimes momentum or not momentum, or you have goals that you wanna achieve and then working to achieve them.

East Forest [00:13:01]:
But I think that’s this that’s the path. Like, that’s the spiritual journey that we start to come to this idea of no destination and that it’s about the, you know, the how more than any results.

Sarah Tacy [00:13:16]:
My friend asks a question. I was talking to her last night and she shared a little bit about how your music has impacted her. And for me, it the way she describes your work helps to put words to something that sometimes words can’t be put to. And in the end, I feel like there will there will be that duality of both impact and it’s not me. But I’ll read to you what she wrote. She says, I have a reflection on how much his music has touched me and my family, like a life soundtrack. I find his music is like that for me. Places me in multi dimensions here, there, all at once.

Sarah Tacy [00:14:05]:
The layers of sounds mixed from around the world gives me cellular memory of wholeness. All senses tapped and awakened. With his music, I see and remember the pattern of life, how sounds influence movements, and all movements absorbed in the sea of life.

Sarah Tacy [00:14:25]:
She perceives that you’re receiving, mixing, merging, molding what feels to her to be ancient memories of mystery, of time, space, and creation. And she wonders if you have a sense of your impact.

East Forest [00:15:19]:
I think the ways one senses impact is in two ways. One is more superficial, you know, you maybe receive an email or even just a comment on social media, something supportive like that. But I I think the way you’ve I feel it potentially is in the universal things we feel as people where when I’m at its best when I’m playing something probably alone or in a concert, and, you know, you have the moment where I feel that same thing. Perhaps that sort of awakening of some deeper human beyond human feeling and that’s the thing I suppose that we all share. That’s the thing that is all of us. And so when I’m feeling that resonance, I I I’m assuming and it is an assumption, but I think I know it in my heart that’s, like, that’s that’s the thing we’re all feeling. So, you know, there’s not a lot to to say.

East Forest [00:16:29]:
It’s like we just feel these things together. And that’s one of the great things about art. I think that’s really the point of all art and all of its different modalities is that we can we can feel things. When we feel these various emotional states or it allows us to get beyond just the boundary of the three-dimensional space, especially of just linear thought or reductive materialism, and it allows us to remember and have a felt experience of the totality of what it means to be incarnate. And that’s a big thing, and I think it’s it’s just it’s very easy, of course, to feel very locked into just our consciousness right here. And it’s it’s it’s helpful to have practices or, you know, like walks in nature. The things that allow us to move beyond that, and that might that might be something unique to humans that we really need because we have this self awareness of being alive. It’s helpful, at least for me then, to have something to, like, not freak out about that.

East Forest [00:17:46]:
Yeah. Things to transcend that knowingness to be like, okay. So I’m here and this is all happening and I have thoughts and, like, so what do I do with that? And art and or music for me, in particular, is my practice to continually feel something bigger than that.

Sarah Tacy [00:18:06]:
Can you talk about the role of your music with people journeying? Why would your music possibly amplify an experience?

East Forest [00:18:21]:
I think music on its own absolutely can be, you know, enough to to to feel that expansion, and I’ve seen it happen and really open people. But at least for myself, I was a bit of a tough nut to crack. Like, the way I grew up, my my father was an atheist and and very much like science and and materialism. My mother, more agnostic. But I was grasping for a sense of of meaning, and it wasn’t enough for me to just read something or hear something or see something. I needed to feel something, and I hadn’t really felt anything that that proved it to me in a way. And then I had certain psychedelic experiences where I broke through in a sense that there was just no denying of this sense of more. And music played a role in in guiding those experiences, but also in how it aligned with the experiences to I mean, it’s hard to even describe, but something about the music and the psychedelic experience would would harmonize in a certain way that created a very important feeling and understanding.

East Forest [00:19:25]:
Like, they almost became the same thing in a way that unlock something. These these ideas are really impossible to talk about really, but so I I just got very interested in what is that harmony in a way. And can I reverse engineered or in essence be in service to it to create more of that? I think it’s an endless song. There’s not one, you know, certainly no destination. And that’s the primary name of the game I’m into. The thing is, like, whether or not the psychedelics are involved in that, like, physically, so to speak, like, you’re actually using them at the same time isn’t you don’t have to. You know, it’s the music’s still music. It’s just, I mean, perhaps amplify is a good word because it truly is amplifying the music, like, its depth and potential.

East Forest [00:20:15]:
It’s just you’re experiencing it and feeling like like, I have I have friends who maybe are sort of casual fans of of my music because they’re my friend and they’re familiar. And I’ve had a few that, like like, yeah, I like your music. You know? And then one day, they finally take some mushrooms and actually, like, do a ceremony with it and listen, and then they come back and they’re just like, I had no idea. And that’s also just speaking to the testament of they probably never really sat with mushrooms, for instance, and really just given it space to to work with them. And listen, maybe they’ve always been running around at a festival or and that’s that was cool for them too. They just didn’t realize how much more was there.

Sarah Tacy [00:21:00]:
And

East Forest [00:21:00]:
perhaps they did also in the same way the music that, like, I hadn’t really understood the layers that could be aligning or unlocking there. And so, yeah, I don’t know. It’s just to say that music is a particular language that seems to speak the language of the psychedelic space, And when used intentionally, it has some pretty powerful implications.

Sarah Tacy [00:21:22]:
Yeah. Thank you. As you were answering that, the way I asked it was how music amplifies the mushroom experience. But the way I heard you answer it was the way mushrooms amplify the music experience. And I get how they’re completely intertwined, and it’s not one or the other. But I really enjoyed the way I perceived you answering it. I really enjoyed hearing it the other way too.

East Forest [00:21:47]:
Film music for mushrooms where doctor Leo Roseman, who we’re talking to in London, psychedelic researcher, he he said he’s like, it’s sort of music therapy supported by psychedelics. And I’m like, wow, that’s flipping it all around. In many ways it is. So that’s why one of the reasons we made the film was to bring that into the forefront of the conversation about why aren’t we talking more about the role of music in the psychedelic space? Because right now it’s a bit of an afterthought.

Sarah Tacy [00:22:17]:
I’m unsure how psychedelics are used in the more clinical settings, say, at John Hopkins, do they use music in those settings, or is it really Yeah.

East Forest [00:22:29]:
Yeah. They all do almost pretty much all. And they’re almost all using they’re not really thinking it through in a sense. Well, I mean, they they’re like, we need music and they use music, but the two things they haven’t really put a lot of new thought into is they’re using a lot of just old music. A lot of them are using the Johns Hopkins playlist that was made, gosh, you know, in the 2000. And I I’m not a fan of that playlist. That’s actually why I made my music for mushrooms album in 2019. And then on top of that, they’re not thinking too much about the delivery of that music.

Sarah Tacy [00:23:03]:
That, like, the timing.

East Forest [00:23:04]:
Fidelity. Like, that how like, is it headphones? Are they good headphones or good speakers? Or how is this gonna work? And there might be a cheap Bluetooth, you know, in a multimillion dollar research setting. So it just doesn’t make sense to me. But Yeah. I’m making some headway. I’m I’m doing a research project with doctor Robin Carhart Harris at UCSF, and we’re implementing my my music that’s actually the soundtrack for the film. It’s gonna be a it’s just a long form piece. That’s the 3rd in my series.

East Forest [00:23:36]:
That’s the guide. Music from Mushrooms was the first album. That’s also now a movie. And then I had another album. Now this is the 3rd. And so they’re gonna be doing active research with it and using a better systems and headphones and all that stuff.

Sarah Tacy [00:23:49]:
I love that. I would be so interested, and I don’t know if this is part of the research, doing it with better headphones using your music versus doing it with cheaper headphones and the playlist that they’ve been doing for years and see what type of difference they can measure. And I know that so much of what we’re talking about and perhaps what you and I have experienced in these realms really doesn’t need to be measured in so many ways. And I also imagine that the reason why people are measuring it is take away the fear and the stigma and find small steps in for, people that it could be useful for.

East Forest [00:24:27]:
It’s it’s largely right now to give mainstream acceptance.

Sarah Tacy [00:24:31]:
Yeah.

East Forest [00:24:31]:
You know, science is the way to do that, but science is effective. It’s slow and expensive. You know, it takes time to do these studies years years to to do things. We’ve all probably, like, yeah, we know that works, but I guess it’s important to to prove it and and prove it scientifically.

Sarah Tacy [00:24:48]:
Yeah. I heard this quote that you said a few times in in a podcast I listened to this morning that you were in, the lifestyle podcast, and you said life is about friction. Can you say a thing or two about that?

East Forest [00:25:02]:
Well, I think it’s just the idea that we’re here to learn. Ram Dass was talking to his guru, his teacher, and about how he was always getting high and it was a bummer to come down. And Maharaj is like, well, have you ever considered you’re in a school. You ever considered taking the curriculum? And it’s this idea. My another friend of mine, Court Johnson, who’s in the film, he’s the voice in the aspens and those sequences, and he says something very similar that, look, all choices are valid. Everyone graduates. And, you know, this the Dharma is the playing field. This is the campus of Earth.

East Forest [00:25:41]:
And so if you look at it that way, our life is the the the curriculum. And the only way then you can learn anything is to be pushing up against something and have resistance. You have something to know what to work with. So in that way, the friction, the challenges that we face are the point. And if if being a soul is sort of floating in this non time perfection of knowingness, I sure hope. God forbid if it’s just like this for eternity. It’s like, you know, then we come here to do this, and it takes a lot of bravery. It takes a lot of bravery to step into a place of incredible friction.

East Forest [00:26:26]:
I mean, this is a very metaphysical idea, but I’ve heard things in metaphysical spaces that there are many incarnations like many universes beyond just even like let’s call this one duality You know where we have on and off sleep wake, death, birth, breath out, breath in, 10, you know, all the stuff, stars, the thing that this universe is, and it’s a quite a big universe. But you could incarnate other ways, and they’re actually a little easier, simpler, maybe slower. But, you know, you have options. But this place, Earth in particular, is one where it’s considered, like, let’s call it, like, graduate level in a way. It’s like it’s pretty intense, but you get so much done, like, as a soul. Like, there’s it’s juicy. Like, it’s just lots of friction. There’s lots to dig into.

East Forest [00:27:18]:
And so in that way, it’s honoring the choices that perhaps we’ve made as souls to say, I’m gonna come here and be part of this grand experiment to be an animal and also a cosmic being at the same time.

Sarah Tacy [00:27:32]:
Yeah. Can you say anything about partnership in that or family?

East Forest [00:27:39]:
I think that relationships are the crucible of soul work and human work because it’s the thing that usually plays the biggest role in our lives, and it’s also the thing that’s the most present. It’s, like, right there in front of us. So, for a lot of us, that’s our partner. It’s also our family. It also then extends out to our friends, to our communities, as well as, like, our pets. So all the things that we are in relationship to sort of like these concentric circles of proximity and time, I would posit, like, that is the point. That’s there’s a lot there for us, and we often are very much some people are looking more externally at, like, well, what’s my public perception? Or, you know, the things that are a little bit actually further out or even more conceptual in your head in a lot of ways. Like, do they really exist? Mhmm.

East Forest [00:28:33]:
You know? Or is it really just a mental concept? Like, you talked about my impact. It’s like, well, in a lot of ways, it’s a mental construct. It it’s just we’re asking you to think about it. I’m like, I don’t know. I mean, sure. I could think about it, but I’m still just sitting here.

Sarah Tacy [00:28:47]:
Totally.

East Forest [00:28:48]:
So in that way, I think relationships are, like, the breeding ground for, like, so much stuff for us. And it’s worth there’s also a bit look. I’m not trying to say it’s easy. There’s another round of us lines. Like, you think you’re enlightened, go spend a weekend with your people. You know? It’s like because it’s that’s why it’s tough. It’s

Sarah Tacy [00:29:08]:
like Yeah.

East Forest [00:29:09]:
It’s hard. It’s hard. It’s it’s really thick stuff.

Sarah Tacy [00:29:12]:
Yeah. I mean, I’m just appreciating the I was listening to you, so at the end of that podcast too, you did this really beautiful meditation for times of chaos. And and then I know that there’s a clip in the movie where you’re feeling really stressed and, it seems like on the brink of breaking. And just that we get to be both. We get to hold both spaces of being fully in our body and present and breathing. And then the other one can also be fully in body, and it might not feel as good. And I think public perception sometimes would say that if one is in the spiritual world or teaching, teaching’s maybe the wrong word. Resourcing ways of being or centering for people that that should be the way it always is.

Sarah Tacy [00:30:05]:
And what I love is every time we get an example of just how being human is a process of okay. So I’ll speak for myself. For being human for me is getting to have these moments where I feel like I’m possibly in unity consciousness, that I possibly get it. And then I am back on a habit or place that I feel disconnected, lonely, and isolated. And that no matter how many tools or rounds I go through, for me, it’s a cycle that continues. Okay. So I’m just gonna keep speaking for myself is that as I’ve gotten the blessing to be near a variety of teachers and who have been in the game for 50, 60 years, 70, they may say, Don’t put me on a pedestal. And then when I get a chance to be, like, in their circle, more like, Oh, like, they weren’t just saying that.

Sarah Tacy [00:31:07]:
They really are having a human experience. And I guess in this moment, I’m speaking a little bit to that part of me that always hopes that there is an end destination where the suffering ceases and the part of me that knows better as well.

East Forest [00:31:27]:
Maybe I could just add some color to that and say that the engine of forgetting allows you to remember. So the the gift of, quote, forgetting or being in the friction then allows you to fall back into remembering. And that is the point. So forgetting is a gift. And it’s not something that will ever be avoided. That is as as much as we breathe in and out. It’s we go in and out of these things. I think it’s more the way we can sit in the seat of our soul and watch the show going by as Krishna Dasa would say.

East Forest [00:32:09]:
You’re just you see it. It doesn’t change that it’s happening. You might see like I’m really angry right now. The fact that you’re sitting there noticing that is pretty huge. Mhmm. As opposed to being completely consumed and identified with it. You can hold this secondary consciousness of, like, I noticed that I am angry. Okay.

East Forest [00:32:32]:
That’s interesting. I know that that’s just an emotion yet. I boy, do I feel it right now, but you’ve already, like, broken the spell.

Sarah Tacy [00:32:41]:
It’s

East Forest [00:32:41]:
feel like Eckhart Tolle stuff. It’s it’s this it’s this idea of awareness or that’s that’s another way of saying mindfulness. But it actually is quite that is when the doorway opens. And in that way but remembering that there’s a gift in that too because even that remembering right there was a micro of just like, oh, I’m I I’m not I’m not a 100%. I’m not lost. I’m like, there’s even if it’s 1% of me is is still in a state of just essentially loving awareness of just beingness.

Sarah Tacy [00:33:21]:
I wanna thank you for coming on. And I would love so not all of my listeners are from Maine, but what I learned from you at the beginning before we started recording is that if your show is not showing nearby for them, that they can go to your website, musicformushrooms.com, and request a screening. Is that right? Is there any other way that they can There

East Forest [00:33:48]:
is a request a screening button, and they can also there are screenings we’re doing this fall 2024 all over the country, a few in Canada. And hopefully, you know, down the line, we’ll get some overseas, and eventually, we might be able to do some virtual online screening. So but there’s nothing better than, you know, being together with people and experiencing and having that felt experience together. And, of course, in the theaters, it’s the best sound. We have a

East Forest [00:34:15]:
pretty good sound

East Forest [00:34:17]:
mix, and it’s about music. So Yeah. But, yeah, go to music for mushrooms.com. 1st, just see if there’s a screening near you. And if if not, we are adding them almost daily. You can request a screening too. Definitely get on the the list, and we it’s really more of a conversation over the the entire year next year where we’re sharing a lot more materials. There’s so much stuff we couldn’t put in the film that we did film that is so good that we wanna share too, and there’s just a lot there to have a broader conversation.

Sarah Tacy [00:34:47]:
What does it feel like to see your life on on film where someone has cut it and put it together?

East Forest [00:34:59]:
I mean, it’s a really cool, like, I guess, testament to a moment in time. And it’s already gotten to the point where I look at it, and I’m like, oh, I’m older than that. Or, like, he just there’s that kind of stuff. You know you’re gonna look back. You never get any younger. And but I directed the film, and so I I think I spent a lot of time just so focused on, like, how do you make a good movie and tell a story. I got very objective about it. So I’m it’s still like this when we’re recording this, you know, the premiere in New York is in a couple days.

East Forest [00:35:28]:
Like I we really haven’t shown it to a ton of people. We’ve done a lot of private screenings and stuff. And and even then my mind is very still much in, like, are we gonna change this? And then reading the room and reactions and rhythms. And so I haven’t actually I’ve had moments where I I’m zoomed out and I’m like, oh, this is crazy. Like, wait a minute. That was a very private moment, and now it’s, like, being shared. I was so focused on, like, well, does this serve the story? Does it does this make this more compelling? And now it’s a little like, oh, this is a little bit of exposing. But, hey, it is what it is.

East Forest [00:35:58]:
I think we’re very used to these days from social media and stuff of feeling like we have a lot of access to each other. But I wanted to make a film that has a lot of verite moments, meaning, like, a lot of just, like, real moments. And that’s a lot more interesting to me than a bunch of talking heads just telling you stuff. Like, we wanted to cultivate a feeling, and we want you to have emotions when you’re watching it as opposed to just learning stuff. And I think I think we got there.

Sarah Tacy [00:36:32]:
Awesome. I can’t wait to see it, and I know I have a whole community of people who would love to see it as well. So Yeah. We’ll make our requests.

Sarah Tacy [00:36:40]:
Thank you so much for your time.

East Forest [00:36:42]:
Thank you.

Sarah Tacy [00:36:59]:
Thank you for tuning in. It’s been such a pleasure. If you’re looking for added support, I’m offering a program that’s totally free called 21 days of untapped support.

Sarah Tacy [00:37:11]:
It’s pretty awesome. It’s very easy. It’s very helpful.

Sarah Tacy [00:37:15]:
You can find it at sarahtacey.com. And if you love this episode, please subscribe and like. Apparently, it’s wildly useful. So we could just explore what happens when you scroll down to the bottom. Subscribe, rate, maybe say a thing or 2. If you’re not feeling it, don’t do it. It’s totally fine. I look forward to gathering with you again.

Sarah Tacy [00:37:38]:
Thank you so much.